Estimate Monthly Payments for 2023 Reflection 315rlts TT

[NB Canada]

I disagree whole-heartedly. Being debt-free is a liberated feeling.

Rob

When did I say it wasn’t?

But to go through life with only buying things you can pay cash for is not realistic

[LMagelitz]

I've been told that buying an RV is like setting fire to your wallet.

Hahaha, TRUTH!

[ruffeo324]

I disagree whole-heartedly. Being debt-free is a liberated feeling.

Rob

Thanks for the feedback. I would love to be debt-free, and I'm working on it, believe it or not. I don't think that's necessary to live a responsible life. If it wasn't for credit would not have capitalism. What someone can afford vs. saving money in interest payments are two different things. Some people are really proud they have no bills. I'm happy for them. It doesn't mean having to finance RV/Car/House/Boat/Truck/TV/Computer/iPhone is wrong. It is opportunity costs that make sense. Buying a 105k RV with cash could be a terrible mistake if you miss an opportunity to invest in something for an actual return. I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad; I just noticed there are many people who say debt is bad when capitalism runs on debt in the first place. I think it's an oversimplified approach to life and also moralizing something that isn't an issue if you have the budget and you have savings. Let's not make people feel bad for things that aren't sins. Good for you that you have no debt to repay. That's your reward; please enjoy it.

Examples to think about
If you have received a payroll check, please realize that some employers have a credit account that pays workers on time in the case of cash flow issues. It happens every week.
How do you think stocks and bonds work for large corporations? If they didn't have capital (loans/debt), they could never expand their business. That's how our system works. It's nothing to fear except for cases of abuse and fraud.

But you are also correct!

You are right about 20-year loans. Let's explore the situation of being underwater. According to JD Power, Grand Designs RVs lose about 59% of their value (MSRP Sticker price) after 6 years. I specifically used the reflection TT from 2016. After six years, I would have about $15,000 in negative equity. If I paid an extra $200 a month, I would only break even on the trade-in. That's why you don't shop using the monthly payment.

Where do we go from here?
This is not my first RV. I don't have any kids at home. My wife and I work full-time. I feel that we can handle this and make sure we aren't in a financial bind when the values drop. Traveling internationally costs about $3,000 apiece. RVing has already saved us on vacations and provided opportunities to see family that we would not have considered before we owned one. We went to Florida twice in one year. Traveled to the Keys and Thanksgiving on the beach. I will be responsible, I promise.

[geotex1]

More grey hair chiming in to this sidebar... While I understand and appreciate many's desire to be debt free, the picture of that has changed. What I mean is that in today's United States you must exhibit credit history and credit worthiness. You cannot do this debt free! Kudos to your planning and resources should you never need to draw a line of credit because you're that flush so that not be a factor. However, for most that's simply not possible, and when you need to draw that line you want the best available finance rate. That will not happen being debt free, and the line may not at all be for a toy but for health, emergency, etc. I'm not pegged at a FICO score of 850 because I have no debt. Quite opposite in that I have decades of drawing credit lines and paying them whether mortgages, student loans, auto loans, HELOCs, toy loans, and unsecured loans because many times the cost of money was less than the return on investing my money... I use credit cards regularly earning points and rewards and paying balances before interest hits, and I have had the same credit card companies since the mid-90s with my rates fixed at 9.99% and no fees. That history has allowed me to roll terms into cards with more benefits with the same companies. Additionally, I also have a long history with an assortment of utilities. With everything paid on time and on paper/eyes of lender a favorable debt-to-income ratio, I am in the power position when it comes to borrowing. This is all framed around the concept of good debt and healthy management of finances. However, the key, in my opinion, is to have complete backing of this good debt. What I mean is that if I needed to be, I could pay off everything by week's end, still have savings and investments (even with the abysmal returns - ugh!), and not live paycheck to paycheck. It is my opinion that this is the equivalent of the "debt free" liberation of the generation ahead of me.

I toss this out there because the post took a detour with others' opinions on what constitutes financial health, and I give a different opinion because the vision has changed from yesteryear. I have also been in several discussions with full-timers who need to come off the road who have encountered great difficulty, especially in the past 6 months, trying to draw a line of credit. Some of these folks have absolutely no credit history for the past 10 to 20 years! That can land you in the same pool as the over-extended and bankrupt in the credit worthiness evaluation of lenders!

Off that tangent, I agree that financing ANY towable except a StarCraft for 20 years is not in the best interest of healthy management of finances. It is boggling that any lenders would considering the design life of modern towable is about half that time! Factor in all the expenses of maintenance and repairs, and Davy Jones' locker comes to mind... With more and more barely used campers coming up for sale and the overall softening demand, getting a solid deal on a used unit with some patience is good advice. I certainly didn't see if the OP indicated this, but if the camper will be full-time home it would be somewhat of a different picture on finances.

[trailrydr]

More grey hair chiming in to this sidebar... While I understand and appreciate many's desire to be debt free, the picture of that has changed. What I mean is that in today's United States you must exhibit credit history and credit worthiness. You cannot do this debt free! Kudos to your planning and resources should you never need to draw a line of credit because you're that flush so that not be a factor. However, for most that's simply not possible, and when you need to draw that line you want the best available finance rate. That will not happen being debt free, and the line may not at all be for a toy but for health, emergency, etc. I'm not pegged at a FICO score of 850 because I have no debt. Quite opposite in that I have decades of drawing credit lines and paying them whether mortgages, student loans, auto loans, HELOCs, toy loans, and unsecured loans because many times the cost of money was less than the return on investing my money... I use credit cards regularly earning points and rewards and paying balances before interest hits, and I have had the same credit card companies since the mid-90s with my rates fixed at 9.99% and no fees. That history has allowed me to roll terms into cards with more benefits with the same companies. Additionally, I also have a long history with an assortment of utilities. With everything paid on time and on paper/eyes of lender a favorable debt-to-income ratio, I am in the power position when it comes to borrowing. This is all framed around the concept of good debt and healthy management of finances. However, the key, in my opinion, is to have complete backing of this good debt. What I mean is that if I needed to be, I could pay off everything by week's end, still have savings and investments (even with the abysmal returns - ugh!), and not live paycheck to paycheck. It is my opinion that this is the equivalent of the "debt free" liberation of the generation ahead of me.

I toss this out there because the post took a detour with others' opinions on what constitutes financial health, and I give a different opinion because the vision has changed from yesteryear. I have also been in several discussions with full-timers who need to come off the road who have encountered great difficulty, especially in the past 6 months, trying to draw a line of credit. Some of these folks have absolutely no credit history for the past 10 to 20 years! That can land you in the same pool as the over-extended and bankrupt in the credit worthiness evaluation of lenders!

Off that tangent, I agree that financing ANY towable except a StarCraft for 20 years is not in the best interest of healthy management of finances. It is boggling that any lenders would considering the design life of modern towable is about half that time! Factor in all the expenses of maintenance and repairs, and Davy Jones' locker comes to mind... With more and more barely used campers coming up for sale and the overall softening demand, getting a solid deal on a used unit with some patience is good advice. I certainly didn't see if the OP indicated this, but if the camper will be full-time home it would be somewhat of a different picture on finances.

Funny the DW and I have about the same FICO as you and all we have for the last couple of years is credit card debt and utility bills we pay off each month, so Im bit skeptical on your reasoning for maintaining debt? BTW, im also retired and have been for a few years....

We too had a lot of various successful loans in the past 40 yrs and the score that went with it which all changed during the junk bond and Big 3 bailout days when they basically "readjusted" all scores for whatever reasons.

Sure, getting a large loan is the American way these days, but, maybe on an asset that retains some value like land or a house, not a "soon-as-you-drive-it-off-the-lot" depreciated trailer which most CGs wont even let you camp in when its half paid for and over 10 yrs old. So yeah, the recommendation of purchasing a good pre-used less than 10yr old unit makes perfect sense these days IMO... as long as its been fully checked out prior to the purchase.

So, with that being said, Im still in the camp of the debt free crowd and believe thats the way to go in the late stages of ones career and soon retirement.

[huntindog]

Funny the DW and I have about the same FICO as you and all we have for the last couple of years is credit card debt and utility bills we pay off each month, so Im bit skeptical on your reasoning for maintaining debt? BTW, im also retired and have been for a few years....

We too had a lot of various successful loans in the past 40 yrs and the score that went with it which all changed during the junk bond and Big 3 bailout days when they basically "readjusted" all scores for whatever reasons.

Sure, getting a large loan is the American way these days, but, maybe on an asset that retains some value like land or a house, not a "soon-as-you-drive-it-off-the-lot" depreciated trailer which most CGs wont even let you camp in when its half paid for and over 10 yrs old. So yeah, the recommendation of purchasing a good pre-used less than 10yr old unit makes perfect sense these days IMO... as long as its been fully checked out prior to the purchase.

So, with that being said, Im still in the camp of the debt free crowd and believe thats the way to go in the late stages of ones career and soon retirement.

i charge everything possible on my cc to get the cash rewards.igave up carrying it carrying cash years ago i payit in full every month. fico goes up and down based on which way the wind is blowing (asfar as i can tell) but has never been below 801. i just had my cabelas card cacelled from lack of use. funny thing is they immeadiatly sent me new cards with better terms...i think they trying to become my go to card so they can collect the merchant transaction fees. will be interesting t see the effect this will have on fico not that it matters any.

[huntindog]

i charge everything possible on my cc to get the cash rewards.igave up carrying it carrying cash years ago i payit in full every month. fico goes up and down based on which way the wind is blowing (asfar as i can tell) but has never been below 801. i just had my cabelas card cacelled from lack of use. funny thing is they immeadiatly sent me new cards with better terms...i think they trying to become my go to card so they can collect the merchant transaction fees. will be interesting t see the effect this will have on fico not that it matters any.

i just got the monthly email on my fico score. it went up 27 points. must be some magical pixie dust got sprinkled on me. it makes no sense at all.

[trailrydr]

i just got the monthly email on my fico score. it went up 27 points. must be some magical pixie dust got sprinkled on me. it makes no sense at all.

May be a "credit ferry" way to influence credit responsible folks to get involved with more loans?

After the junk bond FICO score jumble, I couldn't understand what if any criteria they used to determine the scores. Especially when older responsible folks like us had to prove our credit worthiness thru successful higher and longer term loans take outs and payoffs over time back in the day. Heck, my first petty cash (just to establish credit at 20 yrs old while serving in the Army 24/7) loan required a cosigner/collateral of some kind or it wasnt happening . Now, kids can get loans without even batting an eye and you know their FICOs gotta be crap!

Crazy financial world we live in.... makes one wonder when the financial bubble will burst again... another good reason to be in the debt free crowd IMO!

[Jerryr]

My thoughts. If you can comfortably afford the monthly payment and cost to maintain a toy your really want, go for it. You’re only young once and live once.


We are NOW debt free for the last 12 years or so since we’ve been retired. Not so before that.

After getting out of the Air Force in 1970 we had NO MONEY but a paid for new car that I bought from money I saved while I overseas in the USAF.. We rented an apartment and slept on the floor because we couldn’t afford furniture.

We bought our first house by selling our car and buying a junker to get the required $1200 to buy the house with an FHA loan. The mortgage payment was less than apartments rental.

Then when money started to come in with both of us working we bought things we wanted (not needed) using credit. If we didn’t do that we would have lost the ability to enjoy our younger lives. Our hobby was aviation. Wife and I got our pilot licenses. We owned private airplanes for over 30 years and traveled all over. We also both owned and rode motorcycles. We managed to pay off those toys but they were more expensive then RVing.

Regardless, while working we contributed max to our 401k plans. We retired 2 years past our planned retirement age and for those 2 years we saved 80% of our income.

Against advice of financial planner when I retired I took a big withdrawal from my 401k to pay cash for a new house. I didn’t want any monthly debt to pay off. We had a huge tax bill that year. But since we’ve been totally debt free and every month our bank account grows since we have no bills.

Now we don’t have any credit card debt, no loans on our 2 homes, RV, Truck, Tesla, Lexus etc. our income is 2 annuities, 2 Social Security checks and a VA disability check monthly.

I rarely use cash. We use credit cards for everything and pay off in full monthly. This can cause our credit score to yo-yo between 820-845, depending on credit card balance when credit report is pulled, before payment hits. We max credit card points and convert it to cash towards balance.

My point is, when younger, if you can comfortably afford the monthly payment and cost to maintain a toy that you really, want go for it. You are only young once and only live once.

[ruffeo324]

My thoughts. If you can comfortably afford the monthly payment and cost to maintain a toy your really want, go for it. You’re only young once and live once.


We are NOW debt free for the last 12 years or so since we’ve been retired. Not so before that.

After getting out of the Air Force in 1970 we had NO MONEY but a paid for new car that I bought from money I saved while I overseas in the USAF.. We rented an apartment and slept on the floor because we couldn’t afford furniture.

We bought our first house by selling our car and buying a junker to get the required $1200 to buy the house with an FHA loan. The mortgage payment was less than apartments rental.

Then when money started to come in with both of us working we bought things we wanted (not needed) using credit. If we didn’t do that we would have lost the ability to enjoy our younger lives. Our hobby was aviation. Wife and I got our pilot licenses. We owned private airplanes for over 30 years and traveled all over. We also both owned and rode motorcycles. We managed to pay off those toys but they were more expensive then RVing.

Regardless, while working we contributed max to our 401k plans. We retired 2 years past our planned retirement age and for those 2 years we saved 80% of our income.

Against advice of financial planner when I retired I took a big withdrawal from my 401k to pay cash for a new house. I didn’t want any monthly debt to pay off. We had a huge tax bill that year. But since we’ve been totally debt free and every month our bank account grows since we have no bills.

Now we don’t have any credit card debt, no loans on our 2 homes, RV, Truck, Tesla, Lexus etc. our income is 2 annuities, 2 Social Security checks and a VA disability check monthly.

I rarely use cash. We use credit cards for everything and pay off in full monthly. This can cause our credit score to yo-yo between 820-845, depending on credit card balance when credit report is pulled, before payment hits. We max credit card points and convert it to cash towards balance.

My point is, when younger, if you can comfortably afford the monthly payment and cost to maintain a toy that you really, want go for it. You are only young once and only live once.

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I have some more follow-up questions about retirement.
When should all bills be paid off before retirement, including Cars, RV, and house?

What is a good target balance for the 401k? Some people say $1 million. I know it depends on your spending habits but assume a debt-free situation.