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04-12-2018, 08:43 PM #1
Data on Westlake Tires - From Grand Design
GDRV has hired a new manager who's responsibility is to address social media concerns. His name is Tom Holt, and he's been very active on the Facebook owner's group. One of the topics of discussion that he has addressed is the continued usage of Westlake tires. Here is a quote from a response on the FB page:
" Grand Design has since it's inception has always used WestLake so right now we have approximately 300K tires on the road just with Grand Design that is the baseline. We also are required by the Tread Act to report all tire and wheel failures that we are notified of which is less than 1/2% since the companies inception. Additionally the Westlake has an outstanding warranty which is 5 years with a no questions asked 12 month replacement policy which according to Lion's Head our supplier of the tire again less than 1/2%."
I took a different look at the number. Even though he says the reported failure rate is "Less than 1/2%" I'm using a full 1/2% since not all failures are reported. At 1/2%, that means that there is one failure for every 200 tires. If a unit has four tires, it means that there is a 1 in 50 chance of a failure. If it has six tiers, then the probability is 1 in 33.3.
So, based on this information, it appears that one out of every 50 owners can expect a failure of a Westlake tire. Or 1 in 33.3 if you have a three axle unit. This appears to be a pretty accurate number based upon the reported failures we see on this forum and the FB page. When these tires fail, they typically take out the fender well material, insulation, subfloor, fenders, propane lines, etc. This often results in $2K - $4K in damage to the unit. Understand that Lion's Head will replace the tire, but not reimburse the owner for damage to their coach.
I would be very interested to find out the failure rates of Sailun, Maxxis, Goodyear G614 and Endurance tires compared to the Westlake brand.
I thought I'd share these numbers that Grand Design is using for the Westlake brand so owner's can make informed decisions about which tires they are running, and whether they want to to take preventive measures such as adding protection in the wheel wells in case they are one of the 1/50 recipients of a Westlake failure... BTW, doesn't this sound very familiar to the 1% failure rate they were advertising for the Lippert seal issue?
Jim
,Last edited by TucsonJim; 04-13-2018 at 09:33 AM.
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04-13-2018, 03:58 AM #2
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Anyone who believes that just 1% of Lippert seals leak will believe just about anything. The tire stats may be accurate, as most people don't put lots of miles on. Some don't do any miles at all.
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04-13-2018, 05:03 AM #3
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Thanks a bunch Jim for posting and for your thoughts.
Considering that most TT and 5th wheel owners don't put many miles on their rigs a year combined with the fact that not all owners are on this forum or facebook, and the fact that not all who are on here bother to report a tire failure (or seal leak, etc.), etc. I'd say those are pretty high statistics and should be a huge concern to Grand Design.
We are one of those couples that do travel (been ocean to ocean in the last six months) and we're gradually headed back west, now. The Goodyear G614 tires that I put on before we left San Diego are serving us well. They show very little wear and maintain their pressure of 110 lbs. However, for as much money as I paid for them, if/when they do fail I will sure let all the other G614 tire owners know by posting it on this forum along with as much statistic (date of purchase, miles, etc. and the circumstances of the failure) right here on this forum so that we, the owners of these other brands, can kind of start monitoring them.
I do agree that GD should be looking into protecting the wheel wells. And I also think they should look into providing disc brakes. The added cost of disc brakes would not be that much more if done in production.....would provide a much safer rig and would be a leader in the industry (driving even more buyers to GD). Just my .02 worth.SOLD my 2017 Momentum 376TH being pulled by a 2014 Ford F-350 Lariat, FX-4, Crew Cab, Longbed, Dually. Not pulling the 5er, catch me on my 2013 CVO Harley Ultra Classic.
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04-13-2018, 06:25 AM #4
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I worked for an auto manufacturer for many years, this kind of failure rate would generate some sort of " field action". Losing a tire on the trailer has the potential for significant harm beyond the damage to the trailer. The 1 in 50 failure rate for customers assumes equal distribution of questionable product. It is not far fetched to believe that one customer could have multiple tire failures. What if I am the unfortunate customer that has a double tire failure. This could result in complete loss of the trailer, my vehicle, and injury or even death. A Failure Mode and Effects Analysis should put this pretty high on the "Houston we have a problem" list. Would you accept this failure rate on your vehicle?
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04-13-2018, 09:10 AM #5
I’m not sure that I buy Tom’s statistical math. Agreed that at 1/2% of 300,000 tires you have a one in 200 chance of a tire failure. The chance of a second unrelated tire failure is still 1/200. (This does not include a second failure caused by overloading from the first failure) The total population for each possibility of failure remains at 300,000 tires. It does not reduce to 25% of this just because you have 4 tires on your trailer.
RobCate & Rob
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04-13-2018, 09:11 AM #6
An FMEA would be a splendid idea, but I don't think the RV industry is regulated nearly as well as the automotive industry. And I seriously doubt that they have people on their staff with the knowledge to do a thorough assessment. When I questioned the data with GDRV and explained the 1 in 50 odds, their response was "Well, do you know that the failure rate is on other brands?".
Jim
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04-13-2018, 09:24 AM #7
As a point of reference WRT passenger cars . . . "NHTSA's Crash Causation Survey found that there was an issue with a tire before the crash occurred in 1 of 11 crashes (9%)." The summary is here https://one.nhtsa.gov/nhtsa/Safety1n...sJune2013.html with a link to the complete NHTSA report.
This percentage includes tire failures cause by abuse (worn tread, under inflation, etc) but half of one percent compares well to these statistics.
RobCate & Rob
2015 Reflection 303RLS
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04-13-2018, 02:27 PM #8
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I must use a different method of math....
300,000 (tires) X .005 (1/2%) is 1500. Divide that by 4 and you get 375. If it were 6 then 250.
So, 1 in 375 average?
Not sure where those other numbers came into play.Steve- Inventory Manager at Tom Schaeffer's RV, Shoemakersville, PA www.tomschaeffers.com
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04-13-2018, 03:23 PM #9
Huntr70 - 1/2% is 1 in 200, just as 1% is 1 in 100.
300,000 x .005 = 1500 (like you stated). But then 300000/1500 = 200. Roughly 1 in every 200 tires is reported as failing.
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04-13-2018, 05:18 PM #10
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We have all been reading for a long time about Westlake failures. Until this year, those were E rated Westlakes. Has anyone seen any failure statistics for the G rated Westlakes that GDRV is now using (at least on the Solitudes)? Or even seen any reports of G failures? I've noted that there have continued to be reports of failures here, but I don't think the rating has been reported.
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