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04-13-2018, 06:07 PM #11
Al - I've yet to see a G rated Westlake failure.
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05-29-2018, 09:09 PM #12
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Yes. Me - and I've written it up extensively because when one see's their new coach ripped to shreds because of a lousy tire, its difficult to pay attention to a bunch of statistics. Westlake G rated 235/80R16 at 110 ps - center axle. Failed somewhere between the factory and the dealer - a distance of 572 miles. Keep in mind, this was an empty coach - imagine the result if loaded with 4,000 lbs of motorcycle and gear. A five year pro-rated warranty on a $200 tire? Who cares? I want to know who pays for the coach damage (I know that answer). The Westlakes are gone and the Sailuns are on.
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11-20-2018, 04:00 AM #13
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Let's not forget that many of those Westlakes GD shipped were spares. We don't know the overall ratio of 4-wheel to 6-wheel rigs in GD's sales history in order to accurately adjust the 300,000 number downwards for the spares. Nor do we know how many customers had them prophylactically replaced on the trip home from the dealer - surplussing the Westlakes for their highest purpose - tire swings.
Steve and Cheryl
2017 Momentum 328M w/Dual Pane Windows and 3rd A/C. Aftermarket mods: Titan EOH Disc Brakes, MORryde IS suspension and Reese 5th Airborne Sidewinder pin box
2014 Ram 3500 Longhorn Megacab 4x4 DRW with 6.7 HD Cummins Turbo Diesel, AISIN trans, 3.73 axles and a Reese 20K puck mount hitch
Call sign: AAØSB, Class: Extra
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11-20-2018, 04:36 AM #14
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Who does anyone report tire failures to? Grand Design? Lionshead? The NHTSA? Most likely, very, very few tire failures are reported to anyone keeping proper statistics.
We read about tire failures on internet forums, especially in the Summer when people are typically camping more and traveling around. But these are informal places to read about the problems. Even the owner of one of the big RV forums had numerous tire failures on one trip.
And how many tires are made on the same molds in the same factory as Westlakes? There are many different unknown brands coming out of China.
But I did read of one G614 Goodyear failure last month online. That was the first problem I can remember of that fine tire. If GD has put out 300K tires, think how many ST tires the RV industry, boat builders, utility trailer builders and all the other trailer users have on the road? Hopefully Goodyear's Endurance line of ST tires will perform well, and bringing their manufacture back home was corporate genius.
In the meantime, we love our Tennessee built Bridgestone Duravis R250's that cost us a net $600 after selling the Westlakes on Craigslist. That's cheap peace of mind.
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11-20-2018, 04:57 AM #15
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Grease seals leaking would be similar to tire failure. It would go unreported because the vast majority of owners are not members of this and other forums. I only found out about the grease seal issue because of this forum!! Many Grand Design owners I talk to in campgrounds know nothing about the seals. I think the tire issue with China bombs would fall under the same category. Many owners are unaware of the issue and since it is not reported outside of the forum circle there is no way for them to find out. My dealer acted like a deer in the headlights when I ask them about the grease seals. After coming forth with what I already knew about the issue they at that point started to discuss the matter. Tire issues would be the same thing. I personally think that paying $40 to $70K for a new trailer it should have the very best tires on the market. The China bomb problem was allowed to grow because the NTSB is only concerned about "passenger carrying " tires and not trailers.
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11-20-2018, 07:08 AM #16
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If you don't like math, this post isn't worth reading. If you do like it, please check my logic and calculations
On a 2 axle rig there are 5 tires with 1 being a spare. 4/5ths or 80% of the tires on tandem axle trailers are in use.
On a 3 axle rig there are 7 tires with one being a spare. 6/7ths or 85.7% of the tires on triple axle trailers are in use.
So the number of tires actually on the road would be between 80% to 85.7% of the 300,000 sold. To compute the actual number, you need the ratio of tandem axle trailers to triple axle trailers.
Let's assume 55% are tandems. That leaves 45% as triples. So if T is tires in use...
T = 300,000 x ((55% x 80%) + (45% x 85.7%))
= 300,000 x (44.0% + 38.6%)
= 300,000 x 82.6%
= 247,800
Assuming the spares get used sparingly (sorry) for cases where the replaced tire has not failed (e.g. it has a leak), we'll not factor such cases into our math. Even so, the use of a spare is offset by the non-use of the leaky tire.
I will assume the chances of an individual tire failing is the same if it's on a tandem axle trailer or a triple axle trailer.
GD says about ½% of the 300,000 tires they shipped failed. That's about 1500 tires. But when you exclude spares, the chances of a tire failing are a bit higher at 1500/247,800 or 0.61%
So with the above assumptions, the chances of tire failure on a:
tandem axle trailer are 1500/247,800 x 4 = 2.4% or 1 in 41.3.
triple axle trailer are 1500/247,800 x 6 = 3.6% or 1 in 27.5.Steve and Cheryl
2017 Momentum 328M w/Dual Pane Windows and 3rd A/C. Aftermarket mods: Titan EOH Disc Brakes, MORryde IS suspension and Reese 5th Airborne Sidewinder pin box
2014 Ram 3500 Longhorn Megacab 4x4 DRW with 6.7 HD Cummins Turbo Diesel, AISIN trans, 3.73 axles and a Reese 20K puck mount hitch
Call sign: AAØSB, Class: Extra
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11-20-2018, 07:32 AM #17
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Having followed this forum for a little over three years I’ve read a fair number of reports of greased brakes and Westlakes tire failures. The good news is I don’t recall any of these reports including crashes, though I can’t help but think at least one person has rear ended someone due to non functioning brakes. Given the lack of crashes the greased brakes and tire failures are probably low on NHTSA priority list.
Looking for some other information I found the following quote in an article in Modern Tire Dealer interesting, it backs up the thinking trailer tire failures while a PITA and potentially damaging your vehicle are not generally considered a safety issue: “If the tire fails in the drive position, the vehicle won’t overturn,” says Brodsky. “Other tires can carry the load. If the tire fails on the steer position, someone could die.”
I’m not standing up for Wesstlakes or Grand Design’s use of these tires, however most every product built is a series of compromises allowing the manufacturer to sell a product at a reasonable and profitable price. Better tires, disk brakes, and whatever improvement we can think of all come at a price and reduced market. Or the manufacturer can try to hold the line on price and cut costs elsewhere in places like customer service.Colan and Marilyn Arnold
Des Moines, IA - kind of, on the road full time.
Currently in Durango, Colorado
Momentum 350M originally, now a 397TH
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11-20-2018, 07:50 AM #18
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I like your analysis and I also thought I saw a funny tire swing gag - did I imagine that or did someone actually cut it? Also, if your final % are accurate, I think that's far too high for a tire to be considered "reliable" - I have a triple and 1 in 27.5 does not exactly "warm the cockles of my heart". By the way, that triple already blew a tire, so I'm 1 out of 6 ... or a 16.67% failure rate. In the manufacturing world, that's astronomical.
I had a boss who had a masters degree in mathematics. Everytime corporate came out with new "facts and figures", he would use one of his two favorite sayings (he had a third but that one is not repeatable in civilized conversation):
"Give me any two numbers and tell me what you want them to say ..."
"Figures can lie and liars can figure ..." (don't get upset - I'm not saying anyone is lying here)
Cynical perhaps, but his point was that numbers can be deceptive (intentionally and unintentionally). Any manufacturer will always present the best picture and offer supportive numbers. That does not mean that they have considered all of the variables (such as the use of spares). I just choose to base my choices on my experiences and the actual experiences of others. In the case of Westlakes, to me the evidence is overwhelming so I don't use them. Again, in my mind, your math does support that. For the rest of the world - your money, your choice.
Now, back to more important things -
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11-20-2018, 01:22 PM #19
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Hi Dick. The tire swing pun is hiding out in #13 . If you didn't like the odds with the Westlakes (assuming I didn't fubar the analysis), consider that they apply over one useable lifetime of the RV's tires, not the RV itself. Those odds accumulate with the tire lifetimes we burn through. So over two batches of Westlakes using my analysis, the odds of a failure double - 1 in 41.3 becomes 1 in 20.7 for tandems, triple axles go from 1 in 27.5 to 1 in 13.8.
If one drives a lot and seriously doesn't want to experience a blowout (with all the insurance hassles, the lost vacation time, the risk of an accident involving your rig and possibly those following you, the risk to you when changing the tire roadside,..). well it just makes sense (to me at least) to spring for a better tire up front. By now most of us know Sailuns have earned their good rep proving that the Chinese can make a quality tire for a reasonable price. I personally prefer to keep my dollars onshore so the G614s are a solid but pricey alternative.
I honestly can't see the case for Westlakes in the big picture. Apparently GD does - so much so that they yanked their factory option for the G614's. Maybe the uptake was too low with all the first timers buying GD's product. I guess most newbies get educated on tires AFTER they have a blowout. In my opinion, GD should ship each RV that has Westlake tires with five pairs of clean undergarments - one for each member of the typical American family plus one for the dog.Steve and Cheryl
2017 Momentum 328M w/Dual Pane Windows and 3rd A/C. Aftermarket mods: Titan EOH Disc Brakes, MORryde IS suspension and Reese 5th Airborne Sidewinder pin box
2014 Ram 3500 Longhorn Megacab 4x4 DRW with 6.7 HD Cummins Turbo Diesel, AISIN trans, 3.73 axles and a Reese 20K puck mount hitch
Call sign: AAØSB, Class: Extra
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11-20-2018, 03:12 PM #20
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GD dropped the Good Years because not very many people were buying them.
Marcy & Gary
2014 Grand Design - Reflection 303RLS
2022 GMC 3500 Denali Duramax Longbed SRW
2015 GMC Denali 3500 - Retired
2003 F350 - retired
Michigan
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