The Heartbreak of Delamination

**WhittleBurner** · 10-23-2018, 09:21 PM

LCI has trucks on the road the same as GD. One came to where we were at last year in Florida. Fixed our broken spring hanger and he was good.

**MidwestCamper** · 11-20-2018, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Chiefblueman

Hey Jim, thanks! I'm looking forward to getting this done. I'm sure it'll be fine. Kudos to Grand Design for covering this. To their credit, they never questioned whether this would be covered. Their willingness to fly a factory tech out to facilitate the repair is to be commended.

Kim,

How did this turn out?

**Chiefblueman** · 11-21-2018, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by MidwestCamper

Kim,

How did this turn out?

Thanks for asking, Jim.
Grand Design dropped the ball. I asked my customer service rep to verify with the dealership that the repair was scheduled with them and that the factory mobile repair unit would be there on the scheduled date. His response was - "have your trailer there, our guy will be there".

The scheduled date was last Tue. the 12th. I rec'd an email from GDRV on 11/7 saying they were on track for having their guy at the dealership on 11/12 and wanted me to confirm I would get the trailer there, which I did.
I decided to call the dealership on Mon. the 11th just to make sure I wasn't taking a 150 mile round trip for nothing. Sure enough, the service manager hadn't heard word one from GDRV, didn't know who I was and had no knowledge of a GDRV repair tech coming his way. He told me if I brought my trailer there he would have to turn me around and take it home. He also said he does not have the facilities to do this repair.
I contacted the supervisor of the CS agent handling my case, told him what was going on and asked to have the current agent removed from my case. He looked into what happened and basically said somebody had dropped the ball and he would handle my case. That was last Monday, haven't heard a word since.

My past warranty issues with GDRV were handled superbly. This time it's being handled, frankly, in a half assed manner. I tried to send an email today to this gentleman and it came back unable to send due to work being done to his account. I'm starting to feel like I'm no longer a valued customer even though I'm well within the warranty period.

Interesting note - We have a new Grand Design dealer in Western Washington - Clear Creek RV. I went there today and spoke with their service manager. They have a fully equipped body shop and have done several delam repairs. He's not too thrilled about GDRV's proposed method of regluing and clamping. They are authorized to do warranty work for GDRV and he is happy to work with them to facilitate the repair. I'm going to try to get the venue changed to this dealership. I may be taking my case to Jerry McCarthy.

BTW, got to tour a new Solitude S Class 2930. IMHO, one of the best floorplans out there for a 34 ft 5er.

**MidwestCamper** · 11-21-2018, 05:08 AM

Kim,

Based on past GDRV handling of issues in general, I suspect this primarily was a dealer issue in not wanting to be bothered with the delamination work. I would bet GDRV will take of you through the better equipped dealer.

**Chiefblueman** · 11-21-2018, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by MidwestCamper

Kim,

Based on past GDRV handling of issues in general, I suspect this primarily was a dealer issue in not wanting to be bothered with the delamination work. I would bet GDRV will take of you through the better equipped dealer.

Jim,
GDRV admitted somebody on their team dropped the ball. The dealership was never contacted by them. While I don't think it was intentional, it's a far cry from my previous dealings with GDRV customer service. Earlier this spring GDRV repaired and replaced most of the running gear under my trailer at a cost of several thousand dollars. The case was pursued methodically, pertinent info was exchanged between us and I was kept in the loop as each step was taken. It took time and patience and there was never a question about the proper way to accomplish the repair. Excellent customer service. BTW, this was outside the 1 year warranty.

I'm still not convinced the repair method they want to use is a good one.
https://www.mygrandrv.com/fo...638#post197638
See post #9 .
The delamination on my trailer is virtually identical to this, but in 3 or 4 areas. This gentleman had his slide wall replaced by GDRV without question, as have others on this forum, with great success. I've had two GDRV service mgrs. and two longtime independent repair facilities tell me a reglue and clamp is a bandaid.

Sorry for the bit of a rant, but right now I'm a little perturbed with my CS team. I do thank you for your interest.

**MidwestCamper** · 11-21-2018, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Chiefblueman

Jim,
GDRV admitted somebody on their team dropped the ball. The dealership was never contacted by them. While I don't think it was intentional, it's a far cry from my previous dealings with GDRV customer service. Earlier this spring GDRV repaired and replaced most of the running gear under my trailer at a cost of several thousand dollars. The case was pursued methodically, pertinent info was exchanged between us and I was kept in the loop as each step was taken. It took time and patience and there was never a question about the proper way to accomplish the repair. Excellent customer service. BTW, this was outside the 1 year warranty.

I'm still not convinced the repair method they want to use is a good one.
https://www.mygrandrv.com/fo...638#post197638
See post #9 .
The delamination on my trailer is virtually identical to this, but in 3 or 4 areas. This gentleman had his slide wall replaced by GDRV without question, as have others on this forum, with great success. I've had two GDRV service mgrs. and two longtime independent repair facilities tell me a reglue and clamp is a bandaid.

Sorry for the bit of a rant, but right now I'm a little perturbed with my CS team. I do thank you for your interest.

Kim,

At least GDRV owed up to the issue. My issue looked just like the #9 picture you referenced. I had this in two locations above the slide. My dealer cut this out and re-glassed in two pieces where they claimed they have had plenty of experience in utilizing this method. I was also reluctant where it looks good and time will tell if it comes back. They also explained to me about using the glue and clamp method where they mentioned they have had good success in doing this. I like you, feel the same where my wife and I really like this Rig but being a short time til retirement, I am not planning on buying another and hope I have no more issues. We plan to snowbird in the winter for 2-3 months each year once we retire.

**Steve&Camy** · 12-03-2018, 11:34 AM

Are the wall delaminations discussed above (narrow wall above slide-out) attributed to a loss of frame camber as posted by Sidthekid in thread titled "Need help with camber issue on Imagine"?

Sidthekid had major repairs done (entire wall replacement + supports welded along sides of frame), however the above repairs are only patching the wall skin above slide.
I am concerned about my rig when warranty ends as we have only put 7500 miles on it so far (I suspect all similar trailers may develop this problem at some time).

If the trailer frame is manufactured with a camber (arched up like on-highway flatbeds), such that the frame becomes flat when the weight of box is on it, then a "loss of camber" would imply the frame has sagged even further.
This frame sag between hitch and wheels would produce a compressive force along the top of trailer box that would affect the weakest area of wall the first (i.e. the wall above slide). A weight distributing hitch will add a little more sag since it pushes down on the A-frame about 2ft behind hitch ball (Equilizer type of WD).

I can imagine the two horizontal square aluminum tubes in wall above slide might bow in response to compressive forces thus shearing the adhesive bond between tube and plywood skin.

So, I am wondering if Grand Design is now fixing loss-of-camber problems by repairing the wall damage without the bigger expense of restoring the frame camber.

**Chiefblueman** · 12-05-2018, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Steve&Camy

Are the wall delaminations discussed above (narrow wall above slide-out) attributed to a loss of frame camber as posted by Sidthekid in thread titled "Need help with camber issue on Imagine"?

Sidthekid had major repairs done (entire wall replacement + supports welded along sides of frame), however the above repairs are only patching the wall skin above slide.
I am concerned about my rig when warranty ends as we have only put 7500 miles on it so far (I suspect all similar trailers may develop this problem at some time).

If the trailer frame is manufactured with a camber (arched up like on-highway flatbeds), such that the frame becomes flat when the weight of box is on it, then a "loss of camber" would imply the frame has sagged even further.
This frame sag between hitch and wheels would produce a compressive force along the top of trailer box that would affect the weakest area of wall the first (i.e. the wall above slide). A weight distributing hitch will add a little more sag since it pushes down on the A-frame about 2ft behind hitch ball (Equilizer type of WD).

I can imagine the two horizontal square aluminum tubes in wall above slide might bow in response to compressive forces thus shearing the adhesive bond between tube and plywood skin.

So, I am wondering if Grand Design is now fixing loss-of-camber problems by repairing the wall damage without the bigger expense of restoring the frame camber.

I think this could be a possibility. The 315 has 10 inch frame rails but they are long.

The problem, at least in my case, is having a qualified entity determining whether or not this is the case. GDRV, in my case, wants to perform the least costly repair possible. They will not consider any other option than a reglue and clamp approach. They are not interested in determining the cause of the issue. Wall replacement out of the question. GDRV has basically told me - this is what we will do and we won't do anything else. Since Grand Design dropped the ball in scheduling their proposed repair (see post #23 , this thread), I have received no further communication despite repeated emails to my "customer service" rep. It doesn't seem they would be eager to determine there is a frame camber issue, reinforce the frame and replace the wall. My sense of this is that warranty costs may be getting a bit high and they want to hold costs down.

Getting back to frame camber. A 40ft flatbed trailer used for hauling behind a semi tractor has the axles placed very near or at the rear of the trailer, the camber from hitch to axle. I would call it a positive arch or camber and is very visible. I hauled many a load on trailers like this.
A travel trailer on the other hand, has the axles more centrally located. In the case of a 315RLTS, the back of the trailer is some 12 - 14ft behind the rear axle. I could see some camber used between axles and hitch to offset weight distribution from the hitch. It seems this positive arch would have the rear of the trailer drooping a bit. Two things I see on my trailer. The damage has occurred behind the axles. The damage looks like compressive damage from excess positive arch or camber, ie: the delam is greater at the bottom than at the top.

I'm no engineer. I am dismayed that GDRV is not interested in determining the cause of this issue. I don't really know who could determine whether this was an issue or not. Being a couple thousand miles from the factory doesn't help, neither does the lack of interest by GDRV.

In answer to your last question, it does feel like GDRV wants to perform a repair to get through the warranty period without determining root cause.

**Brewhedd** · 02-09-2019, 04:08 PM

Seems like a lot of problems with frames and movement regardless of brand. Sorry to hear of your problems. We are considering a 312BHTS but this has me seriously wondering whether GD is for real or it's marketing hype. Right now we have a FR Rockwood (28' box) BH that has had zero issues in three years.

**Chiefblueman** · 02-09-2019, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Brewhedd

Seems like a lot of problems with frames and movement regardless of brand. Sorry to hear of your problems. We are considering a 312BHTS but this has me seriously wondering whether GD is for real or it's marketing hype. Right now we have a FR Rockwood (28' box) BH that has had zero issues in three years.

Brewhedd, thanks for your sympathy.

I seriously believe my trailer is the exception and not the rule. Delamination can happen with any laminated wall and I would bet it doesn't happen any more often with GD than their competition. Remember, you're usually seeing problems posted on the internet. I wouldn't be posting about "no delamination so far".
I doubt this issue was caused by frame movement but am having it checked by the factory.

I initially thought GD Reflections were a bit higher quality unit than others in its class. I no longer posit this. They have great floorplans and interior fit and finish is better than most I've seen but the construction is no better or worse than the rest overall. They use the same components as most others and the wiring and plumbing techniques are just as bad as any of them. They use Lippert frames and in my case suspension. This is not a swing at GD, just my honest opinion.

Any product line is going to have its lemons and I think my trailer is a little "lemonish". But one of the reasons I purchased Grand Design was their reputation for standing behind their product. I have tested this reputation far more than I ever wanted to. At least they are doing their best to make it right although this time I had to work for it. I sincerely hope GD thinks about pulling some money from their warranty budget and applying it to quality control on the assembly line. I've expressed this sentiment to upper management.
BTW, I still love the darn thing and really enjoy using it.