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  1. #21
    Rolling Along cookinwitdiesel's Avatar
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    For anyone following along, just came across this which seems like a "hand built" Smart Phase Selector Switch (made by AM Solar) pretty much. Very interesting and makes complete sense.

    https://www.mortonsonthemove.com/tom...3-the-inverter

    I am going to noodle on if this can be made to work with an ATS now
    2019 GMC Sierra 3500HD Denali Diesel DRW (Crew Cab | 8 Ft bed | OEM Puck System | Curt Gooseneck Ball for OEM Puck | Timbrens on rear axle)
    2019 Grand Design Solitude S-Class 3740BH-R Fifth Wheel (Onan 5500W LP Generator | MORryde CRE3000 and HD Shackles/Wet Bolts | 3x MORryde Cross Members | 8k Axles and Disc Brakes | Sailun S637 ST | Reese GooseBox 20k 2nd Gen | Splendide Stackable Washer and Dryer)
    Full Suite of Victron Energy Products (2x 5k 24v Quattro Inverter/Charger | 2x 25.6/200 LFP Smart LiFePO4 Batteries | 2880w of Solar Panels across 4x MPPTs | Cerbo GX)

  2. #22
    Rolling Along cookinwitdiesel's Avatar
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    The more I work through this and fret over proper split-phase 120/240V operation the more I have realized - SO WHAT. Nothing in the RV uses 240v anyways, so why work so hard to accommodate that. Dogbone adapters would break that on the input side, the generator breaks that on the input side. Output side is easy, but it is also the more flexible of the 2!

    If I wanted to have a 240v Quattro outputting through an autotransformer to the RV systems, that is cleanest on the output side but then what happens when I have 120V same phase on both legs (dogbones and generator). How would the Quattro handle that? I could clean up the generator side with an additional autotransformer but that adds cost, weight, complexity, and still would not address the dogbone adapter problem. I could run the 2 inverters in parallel and have the proper split-phase output, but then when I have the same phase on the input side of both of them, one would switch to inverting mode and reject the input.

    So I have arrived at the following design. This will essentially run the 2x 120v legs completely independent of each other without worrying about phase. That has the benefit of being the simplest, and the cheapest/lightest weight. Just run one inverter for each AC leg without having them talking to eachother. The only negative that comes to mind for this setup would be the potential to have one inverter overloaded while the other is underutilized. That can be easily handled with some basic manual management of what is in use at a given time. I THINK this could be managed with an Autotransformer on the output side but then I would have to manage the phases on the inverters which would have the above stated problem. So I think this would just be the best all around solution. It should be completely passive, no manual switches needed to get desired operation.

    Man...this would have all been a lot simpler if that old Quattro 120/240V was still available!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails RV Inverter Design - END STATE simple.pdf  
    2019 GMC Sierra 3500HD Denali Diesel DRW (Crew Cab | 8 Ft bed | OEM Puck System | Curt Gooseneck Ball for OEM Puck | Timbrens on rear axle)
    2019 Grand Design Solitude S-Class 3740BH-R Fifth Wheel (Onan 5500W LP Generator | MORryde CRE3000 and HD Shackles/Wet Bolts | 3x MORryde Cross Members | 8k Axles and Disc Brakes | Sailun S637 ST | Reese GooseBox 20k 2nd Gen | Splendide Stackable Washer and Dryer)
    Full Suite of Victron Energy Products (2x 5k 24v Quattro Inverter/Charger | 2x 25.6/200 LFP Smart LiFePO4 Batteries | 2880w of Solar Panels across 4x MPPTs | Cerbo GX)

  3. #23
    Rolling Along carnolddsm's Avatar
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    My two cents worth, the two inverters do provide the luxury of not needing a sub panel. The downside is the weight and expense. I went the sub panel route, the items not powered through the inverter are the ACs, the water heater and the washer/dryer.

    Link to our install: https://www.mygrandrv.com/forum/show...Momentum-397TH

    Since the original post we’ve added two panels for a total of 960 watts.
    Colan and Marilyn Arnold
    Des Moines, IA - kind of, on the road full time.
    Currently in Durango, Colorado
    Momentum 350M originally, now a 397TH

  4. #24
    Setting Up Camp chadskidmore's Avatar
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    Carnolddsm, where did you source the black diamond plate covering like GD uses in the garages?

  5. #25
    Rolling Along carnolddsm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chadskidmore View Post
    Carnolddsm, where did you source the black diamond plate covering like GD uses in the garages?
    Cutsmetal.com
    Colan and Marilyn Arnold
    Des Moines, IA - kind of, on the road full time.
    Currently in Durango, Colorado
    Momentum 350M originally, now a 397TH

  6. #26
    Setting Up Camp chadskidmore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carnolddsm View Post
    Cutsmetal.com
    Perfect, thank you. Expanding the basement on my 349 and was thinking that it would be easier to clean up than the carpet stuff that GD puts in the basement.

  7. #27
    Long Hauler howson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
    The more I work through this and fret over proper split-phase 120/240V operation the more I have realized - SO WHAT. Nothing in the RV uses 240v anyways, so why work so hard to accommodate that. Dogbone adapters would break that on the input side, the generator breaks that on the input side. Output side is easy, but it is also the more flexible of the 2!

    If I wanted to have a 240v Quattro outputting through an autotransformer to the RV systems, that is cleanest on the output side but then what happens when I have 120V same phase on both legs (dogbones and generator). How would the Quattro handle that? I could clean up the generator side with an additional autotransformer but that adds cost, weight, complexity, and still would not address the dogbone adapter problem. I could run the 2 inverters in parallel and have the proper split-phase output, but then when I have the same phase on the input side of both of them, one would switch to inverting mode and reject the input.

    So I have arrived at the following design. This will essentially run the 2x 120v legs completely independent of each other without worrying about phase. That has the benefit of being the simplest, and the cheapest/lightest weight. Just run one inverter for each AC leg without having them talking to eachother. The only negative that comes to mind for this setup would be the potential to have one inverter overloaded while the other is underutilized. That can be easily handled with some basic manual management of what is in use at a given time. I THINK this could be managed with an Autotransformer on the output side but then I would have to manage the phases on the inverters which would have the above stated problem. So I think this would just be the best all around solution. It should be completely passive, no manual switches needed to get desired operation.

    Man...this would have all been a lot simpler if that old Quattro 120/240V was still available!
    I could completely wrong--I'm not an electrical engineer--but something seems wrong when the Victron's are not "talking" to each other as designed. After some searching I stumbled on the design below as posted at https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/w...-schematic.png

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Why not design your system to mimic this setup to get the maximum capability from your Victron inverters?
    2017 Ford F-350 DRW 6.7L Platinum
    2019 315RLTS (purchased 16 Jul 18 from Campers Inn RV in Byron, GA)

  8. #28
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    Hello there I have been following Changing Lanes and they did a video on a inventor instal that is one investor that works both sides of the 120 volt legs.

    The following is their YouTube video
    https://youtu.be/1rPKWrXQYWA

    Their blog on the inverter
    https://changinglanesrv.com/inverter-project/

    Here is the inverter they used.
    https://changinglanesrv.com/inverter-gear/

    I hope this gives you another thought to ponder.

  9. #29
    Rolling Along cookinwitdiesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howson View Post
    ...
    That system always has split-phase 120/240v AC coming in with the 2 phases 180 degrees out of phase (standard US 120/240v configuration). My RV, does not. When you use a dogbone adapter, the same 120v is shared to both legs of the 50amp connector - meaning that both legs are the same phase, not 180 degrees out of phase (so the voltage difference between the 2 legs is zero). Due to this, if I used parallel configured inverters that were expecting split phase, when plugged into a dogbone one of the 2 inverters would sense that it is receiving the wrong phase and reject the "grid" connection and switch to inverting mode. This means that your battery charging capacity is halved and you will put additional cycles on your batteries. My generator will have the same problem. The Onan QG 5500w outputs 2x 120v legs that are in phase, not split phase. I could use an autotransformer to convert this into 120/240v split phase but the dogbone problem would still exist and I would be out $500-700 and added complexity and weight. I do not know of anything that can "autosense" split phase vs same phase and clean up as needed to solve the dogbone problem - and if it does exist, it is likely expensive (relative to the "problem" it would be resolving).

    Seeing as I do not actually need a perfect 240v anywhere in the RV, it makes a lot more sense to just treat it all as 2x independent 120v systems that share a shore power connector and a breaker panel. This way both inverters will not care what phase they are receiving and always act the way you would expect. None of the 120v downstream appliances will care or know the difference.

    The only risk to this approach would be overloading the neutral since worst case would be a 100a difference between the 2 legs which would all ride back on a shared neutral sized for a 50a difference (in split phase, the difference in current between the 2 legs is all that neutral carries). BUT, with the pair of 3000VA inverters, I would be looking at a peak inverted power of 4800W which is 40amps and should be fine even at full draw.

    Does that clear it up some?

    And of course, this all assumes that I even install the 2nd inverter some day. I will likely only have the one initially - can't imagine the wife letting me buy both AND batteries all at once
    Last edited by cookinwitdiesel; 07-17-2019 at 10:09 PM.
    2019 GMC Sierra 3500HD Denali Diesel DRW (Crew Cab | 8 Ft bed | OEM Puck System | Curt Gooseneck Ball for OEM Puck | Timbrens on rear axle)
    2019 Grand Design Solitude S-Class 3740BH-R Fifth Wheel (Onan 5500W LP Generator | MORryde CRE3000 and HD Shackles/Wet Bolts | 3x MORryde Cross Members | 8k Axles and Disc Brakes | Sailun S637 ST | Reese GooseBox 20k 2nd Gen | Splendide Stackable Washer and Dryer)
    Full Suite of Victron Energy Products (2x 5k 24v Quattro Inverter/Charger | 2x 25.6/200 LFP Smart LiFePO4 Batteries | 2880w of Solar Panels across 4x MPPTs | Cerbo GX)

  10. #30
    Long Hauler howson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
    ...
    Thanks for the explanation--the fact that the two 120V lines are 180 out of phase on a 50A site vs one 120V (single phase) on a 30A site (or generator) never occurred to me. Your explanation was very clear. The marine diagram I posted doesn't have this problem because the inverters are powered from the batteries that are recharged from the motor's alternator (or generator).

    Justin from Opting Out of Normal has almost the exact setup you are considering:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    He addresses split phase vs parallel operation in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twLjlpeibdA

    I'm surprised the Victron inverters can't adjust automatically to what they "see" but apparently they cannot. But the answer is just a quick configuration change. Watch the video and it will at least give you an option to consider.

    Learned something new about inverters today. Good luck with your project--look forward to seeing actual install. (Mine morphed many, many times!)

    -Howard
    2017 Ford F-350 DRW 6.7L Platinum
    2019 315RLTS (purchased 16 Jul 18 from Campers Inn RV in Byron, GA)

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