What was Grand Design Thinking? Or, The Little Thngs Wrong That Just Add Up!

[JohnJCES]

I don't want to "dis" or disrespect Grand Design, but I am curious about what little to big things new owners of new Grand Design travel trailers and fifth wheels have found in their first month or so of ownership. I mean, some of the things my wife and I found in our 2020 Reflection 230RL make us ask, "what were they thinking?" As a side note, I did write a letter to GD about some of these things and the positives. I did get a return call, wasn't home, they left a message and asked that I call back, which I did, but was on hold for over 30 minutes. No answer. Finally left my number but no full call back. Oh well!

Here is my list:

1). Just winterized my new fifth wheel. The lower drain lines, hot and cold, are DEAD CENTER underneath the trailer. So, you have to crawl under, unscrew the caps, get squirted on because you forgot to release the pressure, crawl out, crawl back under... do this a few times while you blow out and then add antifreeze... What were they thinking? I have owned four other TTs and the low drain lines on those were brought out near the sewer outlet or easy to get to. I did add a couple of 1/4 turn valves and I am trying to best figure out how to bring them down to near the sewer outlet. The belly is drooped and putting 45 degree shark bites and bringing it to the level of the sewer cap makes it pretty level... not a gentle slope. Still engineering this to prevent removing or modifying the underbelly material.

2). Rear window came unlatched. (This occurred again on our first camping trip along with the right bedroom window getting unlatched).

3). The dining table floor supports, the tube type, were WAY too close to the back bench. My wife is five feet tall and about one hundred pounds and she was squeezed in with the table being inches from her. For me, I was being cut off and there is no way an adult male could eat, sit or do anything on the back side of the table. I reattached them to the floor at an acceptable distance.

4). The glass door covering the entertainment center is latched with only a magnetic latch. This is a 'nice' touch that GD added to the 2020 I believe but it fell down after bringing it home for the first time. I found the magnetic latch not centered and canted at an angle so that only one magnet was touching the metal plate. I fixed this by re-centering and squaring the latch. However, it still falls down and being glass it will probably break or the hinges will fail due to bouncing. I need to find some sort of quarter turn external latch to prevent this from falling down. Probably a poor design idea… a heavy glass door in a moving, bouncing vehicle with a weak magnetic latch. I did find a dual magnet latch and installed that but doubt it will hold this heavy glass. The best bet is probably to remove the glass.

5). After coming home from the dealer for the first time with our new trailer, we noticed the recliners were not centered and appeared to have moved. Upon checking I found just three metal brackets, which used to hold the recliners in position, were loose with one inch standard self drilling screws used to screw these brackets to the floor! These little one inch 6X32 type metal screws just aren’t strong enough! I used much larger self-drilling screws through the chair’s frame into the floor. Little bitty screws with three brackets on 100 total pound chairs? This is a design/installation failure! What was GD thinking?

6). In almost every review and even mentioned in the Grand Design user forums and known to us before we purchased the trailer, was the bathroom faucet has been quite a negative. It is too short and not tall enough to provide a truly quality hand wash or razor shave. For an MSRP of close to 47K or so, I would have paid a few bucks more for a quality faucet and shower head. We replaced it with a taller “bar” style faucet.

7). First trip home, the barn door bottom guide broke due to the barn door swinging into the bedroom. This plastic part is just a pressure fit and any bouncing would cause that door to swing into the bedroom and back. I replaced the part and glued the outer guide into the main base. I will add a strap to the bottom of the door to prevent this part of the door from breaking again.

8). The straps at the top of the barn door AND the bathroom pocket door are way too long. When traveling, those doors slide back and forth slamming into the straps bouncing the doors almost off the tracks. Our solution, until I can make shorter straps to hold the doors more securely was to put a stuffed animal under the strap. My wife thinks it is cute. I would like shorter straps!

9). I LOVED that the trailer came from the factory solar ready. I would have used heavier gauge wires, but 10 gauge wiring is adequate when using an MPPT type solar controller. After several days of solar install and anxious and ready to connect the solar panels, one of the plug’s conductors was bottomed out and would not make contact. I had to disconnect everything and remove the entire box and replace the one connector.

10). Light above the stove is in the 120 volt microwave. Therefore you have no light above the stove when dry camping unless you have a generator running. Our other trailers had a 12 volt light above or near the stove so that you can see what’s cookin’! There are a few posts on adding an LED pancake light under the microwave, so another project!

11). Had a leak in the city water inlet. Found two issues here. Loose connection at the rear, not quite finger tight, (don't tighten those too much) and then a piece of plastic between the washer and the plastic check valve.

Now, don't get me wrong, we really love the trailer! It's just all these little things that make me scratch my head and ask, what were they thinking?

What have you guys found??

John

[geotex1]

I could write a list for every single camper my wife have owned from pop-ups, to hybrid, to entry hard-side, luxury hard-side, and now the Solitude. If I told you I was a Professional Engineer, you can only imagine the critiques I have! However, I have thoroughly enjoyed EVERY camper we have ever owned, and these sorts of items are what constitute my mods, customizations, gadgetry all in the name of function. Classically trained engineers were all taught one fundamental regardless of discipline - design by function! So, I already have my list going for improving function on our 3350RL.

P.S. - You want to talk about dumb drains? How about a fresh water tank drain directly in the middle of tandem axles about 3 feet in from roadside? Or low point drains cramped between the frame beam and J-wrap, protruding only about 2" below the floor, rammed through the same 1-1/4" bore, and with twist on caps PVC caps on the crimped on polyproylene PEX threaded fitting? That was my luxury camper from FR!

[JohnJCES]

How about a fresh water tank drain directly in the middle of tandem axles about 3 feet in from roadside? Or low point drains cramped between the frame beam and J-wrap, protruding only about 2" below the floor, rammed through the same 1-1/4" bore, and with twist on caps PVC caps on the crimped on polypropylene PEX threaded fitting?

LOL!! I have to admit that those are pretty bad! It is true that these little things give me something to do, but... why must it be this way? I feel for those that are older and not capable of such DIY mods and repairs.

John

[geotex1]

LOL!! I have to admit that those are pretty bad! It is true that these little things give me something to do, but... why must it be this way? I feel for those that are older and not capable of such DIY mods and repairs.

John

It's a fair question, and I have to fall on the answer of majority rules! This is my simple terms from the corporate world's position to force design to the lowest, acceptable state to the majority of the customers. As an engineer, I certainly could build something for you that will last forever. Would you pay for it? If not, how do I stay in business. If you would, and so would others like you, then how would I stay in a profitable, sustaining long-term business without guaranteeing repeat customers with a designed product life cycle and price point options? It's a paradox of capitalism!

One nice thing that still remains of serious campers - i.e., those of us in it for life versus those that tried as a fad - we are all helpful to our fellow campers! If you ask my wife, she would probably tell you she figures on 1 day per trip-worth of time I spend helping other campers sort an issue, figure out their new rig or gear, help clean up that unexpected burst or catastrophe. I hope this is an aspect that will continue in our sub-culture long after my time card is punched for the final day. Also, you will find in our sub-culture good knowledge of independent RV repair folks that are truly good at what they do and ask fair wage for fair work. You just have to ask around a bit because they're guarded because they're like gold! LOL!

[JohnJCES]

@geotex1 Yes! I would pay extra for something that was reliable, built with thought and with care when assembling! The need to compete I surely understand. This is my fourth TT and all had some issues, but this one takes the cake! Lack of thought and not necessarily lack of engineering IMHO. Who would place a table so close to the seat that no adult, much less a child could comfortably sit and eat? Why use one inch screws to hold down a hundred pound, give or take, set of recliners? A thick heavy glass horizontal door with a single magnet latch in a bouncing moving vehicle? These are quality control issues! A lack of quality control makes them less competitive, IMHO. I guess they are manufacturing future profitability for others by engineering in failures. Being an investor I love it when companies make money because when they do, I do too. But I want companies to make a reliable well thought out product. I don't want the corporate world's position to be, "force design to the lowest, acceptable state to the majority of the customers." I realize nothing will be perfect. There will always be issues, but how many little things are just nuts and just too many?? Does it cost that much more to do things right the first time? It is crazy that GD will pay others hundreds if not thousands of dollars to correct these issues under warranty. Poof... there goes profit.

Don't get me wrong, I do, sometimes, enjoy working on this stuff, but some of it is just stupid! It is much easier for me to fix this stuff myself knowing it is done right rather than haul it 175 miles to my dealer and hope the guys that work on it CARE. Important word... care. I am not finding it too much today. Money rules. Time is money. Do it quick, get it in and out.

And believe it or not, I do love the 230RL! And I do enjoy helping others with their issues, but I still shake my head and wonder about the guys who build these things.

John

[sande005]

Since it is that season, I'll add the two that again forced their way into my world:

1. On the hose for feeding antifreeze into the water system, why put a pex fitting and cap on the end that is impossible to get into an antifreeze jug??? Last two years I cut the top off the jug (messy!) to get the hose into it. This year I trimmed the raised "grips" on the fitting itself, which just made it narrow enough to fit in the jug.
2. On my 2670MK - really, I have to take out 8 screws, a panel, and two edging strips to get at the water pump and it's feed hose for the above antifreeze?? Hinge the panel with a latch, or make it a slide/pull out....(yep, a project for next year...)

[Wicked ace]

@geotex1 Yes! I would pay extra for something that was reliable, built with thought and with care when assembling! The need to compete I surely understand. This is my fourth TT and all had some issues, but this one takes the cake! Lack of thought and not necessarily lack of engineering IMHO. Who would place a table so close to the seat that no adult, much less a child could comfortably sit and eat? Why use one inch screws to hold down a hundred pound, give or take, set of recliners? A thick heavy glass horizontal door with a single magnet latch in a bouncing moving vehicle? These are quality control issues! A lack of quality control makes them less competitive, IMHO. I guess they are manufacturing future profitability for others by engineering in failures. Being an investor I love it when companies make money because when they do, I do too. But I want companies to make a reliable well thought out product. I don't want the corporate world's position to be, "force design to the lowest, acceptable state to the majority of the customers." I realize nothing will be perfect. There will always be issues, but how many little things are just nuts and just too many?? Does it cost that much more to do things right the first time? It is crazy that GD will pay others hundreds if not thousands of dollars to correct these issues under warranty. Poof... there goes profit.

Don't get me wrong, I do, sometimes, enjoy working on this stuff, but some of it is just stupid! It is much easier for me to fix this stuff myself knowing it is done right rather than haul it 175 miles to my dealer and hope the guys that work on it CARE. Important word... care. I am not finding it too much today. Money rules. Time is money. Do it quick, get it in and out.

And believe it or not, I do love the 230RL! And I do enjoy helping others with their issues, but I still shake my head and wonder about the guys who build these things.

John

Some just don't get it but need to let everyone else know how important they are. Steam or diesel electric?????
I feel your pain. I too had a long list of issues that still seems to go on. Hammer GD, call customer service let them know. Back everything up with an email. Unfortunately the Grand Design hype is just that. I came from a Forest River Flagstaff. Everyone loves to bash FR but I had not one problem after I took delivery.

[Keebler]

I totally understand the choice to use cheaper parts. The reality is that manufacturers will build a product for a price that the market will bear.

My issue is the fact that the assembly process has so much variance. Once you get behind the surface, it is mess of wires, plumbing, etc.

Just because you are using low cost parts doesn't mean you can have defined and managed processes for the assembly/installation. It doesn't add cost to be organized and follow systematic, efficient and effective processes; on the contrary.

[Papahoosh]

I also understand your frustration. My previous rv a FR Catalina which was an entry level only had one issue. I traded in with current rv and I had 13 issues. I was disappointed. However, the GD customer service has been great.

[Maximus216]

Its the luck of the draw. They are all man made and each one is different. You hope that you get a good one (any brand) when you buy one.

This statement should be printed on each purchase order in bold letters and initialed by the purchaser. "Don't buy a camper if you don't own a toolbox"