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Thread: My tow vehicle

  1. #11
    Site Sponsor Jerryr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skijobe View Post
    Using my Firestone air bags should take care of the 3” or more sag. I’m thinking if we stay at the 12000 lb trailer weigh I should be ok. We don’t load our truck with anything but me and my wife and the fuel.
    Actually the 3" of sag I get puts my Reflection 337RLS pretty level with about 7" of space between the trailer and the truck bed rails. If I were to install bags and raise the rear 3" it would put the trailer pretty nose high.

    It tows great and the truck handles great with the 3" sag. The issue is a night where headlights aim high. When towing I only travel during the day so its not an issue. I just wish Ford had adaptive headlights like my Lexus has and Toyota Avalon had.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 99999E37-EFCB-408A-B22C-6C74FC08DBED.jpeg   4D0BEC62-64E7-473B-829B-D1B799A19388.jpeg  
    Jerry & Linda
    Emma & Abby our Mini Golden Doodles & JR our Amazon Parrot
    2017 Reflection 337RLS, Build Date 01/2017, Titan Disk Brakes, Goodyear G614s 235/85/16 G Rated tires
    2022 F-450 King Ranch Ultimate, 4,868 lb Payload, Bedrug Bedliner, Andersen Ultimate II Aluminum 5th wheel hitch
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  2. #12
    Site Team xrated's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skijobe View Post
    Using my Firestone air bags should take care of the 3” or more sag. I’m thinking if we stay at the 12000 lb trailer weigh I should be ok. We don’t load our truck with anything but me and my wife and the fuel.
    Loaded to 12,000 lbs is still going to put you over payload on the truck. Pin weight alone will be ~ 2400 lbs.....plus the weight of the 5ver hitch, plus passenger(s). You are pretty easily looking at putting 2600 2700 lbs on a truck with a payload of ~2200 lbs And remember, the air bags do nothing to increase the capacity of the truck, they are simply there to help level a truck, and in your case, to help level a truck that will be overloaded....both payload wise and GVWR wise. Sorry.
    2016 F350 CrewCab Dually
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    Excessive Payload is a Wonderful Thing

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  3. #13
    Fireside Member Skijobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skijobe View Post
    Using my Firestone air bags should take care of the 3” or more sag. I’m thinking if we stay at the 12000 lb trailer weigh I should be ok. We don’t load our truck with anything but me and my wife and the fuel.
    Thanks to all of you who have offered your opinion, knowledge and expertise . I’m just going to try my new rig with my truck and see how it works out. Thanks to all and happy camping.

    Eloy and Mona

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    RE 250 vs 350, the rear axles are different too. It is not just the springs. If you wear out the 250 a le prematurely due to being one or two thousand pounds overloaded, that might be a reason. Sterling axle vs the m275.

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    Site Sponsor Jerryr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heavy Half Ton View Post
    RE 250 vs 350, the rear axles are different too. It is not just the springs. If you wear out the 250 a le prematurely due to being one or two thousand pounds overloaded, that might be a reason. Sterling axle vs the m275.
    I may be wrong but I believe that on the diesel 250 the axle is the same Dana M275 axle. For the gas 250 they definitely use the sterling axle.

    The rear GVWR rating is different. 6340 lbs for the 250 vs 7230 lbs for the 350. The reason is because the Gross Axle rating is determined by the rated capacity of the minimum component. I’m pretty sure that minimum component on the 250 are the tires. Even though they use the same tires they only air them to 65 psi on the 250 vs 80 psi on the 350.

    Regardless even with a Rear GVWR of 6340 lbs he won’t exceed the Rear GAWR when trailer is attached. He will exceed the Payload due to the 10,000 lb limit of the GVWR.

    Not that I’m recommending it, but lots of people are successfully towing 337s with diesel 250s.
    Last edited by Jerryr; 10-29-2019 at 08:06 AM.
    Jerry & Linda
    Emma & Abby our Mini Golden Doodles & JR our Amazon Parrot
    2017 Reflection 337RLS, Build Date 01/2017, Titan Disk Brakes, Goodyear G614s 235/85/16 G Rated tires
    2022 F-450 King Ranch Ultimate, 4,868 lb Payload, Bedrug Bedliner, Andersen Ultimate II Aluminum 5th wheel hitch
    http://visitedstatesmap.com/image/FLGANCSCsm.jpg

  6. #16
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    This question gets asked a lot and the same same half dozen guys on this forum always answer in the same way. They immediately go to the payload sticker...and what they told you is correct. You are way over (1,000 lbs.?) the capacity listed on your payload sticker. The good news is, from a practical standpoint, you should be fine. Your payload sticker is driven by the fact that Ford markets the F250 as a Class 2 truck which limits the GVWR to 10,000 pounds. Payload isn't an engineered rating, it is a mathematical equation (GVWR minus the weight of the truck). As previously stated, your rear springs are slightly softer than a SRW F350. Someone else assumed that you have the Sterling 10.5 rear axle. That is most likely correct although the F250 with the High Capacity Trailer Tow Package comes equipped with the same Dana M275 as the F350. Either way, your axle is easily up to the task of towing your 337. Until 2017, that Dana 10.5 was the axle used in the F350. If you have the HCTTP or Camper Package, you will also have the same overloads as a F350. Aside from the rear springs and (possibly) the rear axle, every other component of your F250 is identical to a F350. If you decide to upgrade your truck in a meaningful way, you will need to move up to a DRW and many here would suggest that a DRW is the appropriate TV for a 337. They may be correct. Personally, the 337 was on my short list but I decided that the 303 was the right trailer for me from a weight and length standpoint.

    If purchasing a new SRW truck, I would strongly suggest going with a F350 to get the bigger number on your payload sticker. Since you already have the F250, I would make a point not to exceed the axle, wheel, and tire ratings. The axle rating is actually driven by the weakest component in your rear suspension, not the axle itself. You may have trouble staying under your rear axle rating (likely 6340 lbs.). I think any OEM wheels will have enough capacity and tires are easy to upgrade if necessary. Sometimes all you need to do is increase the pressure in the stock tires. My tires came inflated at 65 psi but the same tires on a F350 would be inflated to 80 psi to match the higher rating. Although nothing can increase the payload capacity of your truck, there are many ways to increase it's capability. Airbags are a great idea to level the truck. Helper springs are another.

    So, your situation is not ideal but if you apply some common sense, you should be fine. There are literally tens of thousands of people towing fifth wheel trailers using F250s without incident. Some of them may be grossly overloaded from a practical and a sticker standpoint. In my opinion, you are not. If a F350 can handle your trailer, so can your F250. Are you pushing the limits of a SRW truck? Maybe. The truth is, many factors impact safety while towing. Keep your speed down, stay alert, and drive defensively. Failing to those thing will pose a much more immanent threat to your safety than exceeding your payload sticker. Good luck!
    2019 F250 Platinum, 6.7, LB, FX4, High Capacity Tow Package
    B & W Companion
    2019 303RLS

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    I can only speak for the F250 model years of 2011 through 2016, the rear axles of that truck were in fact NOT the same rear axle as the F350......even thought they showed the same part number. The internals of the axle were different because some of the internal parts were different than the F350. If I remember correctly (it's been a while though), the axle diameter was different, the number of spines on the axles, the bearings maybe?. If you needed internal parts for either of these axles, the 250 or the 350, they needed to have the vehicle VIN in order to get you the correct parts....because internally, they are different axles.
    2016 F350 CrewCab Dually
    2018 Momentum 394M...Heavily Modded!
    2023 Suzuki GSX-S1000 GT+
    Excessive Payload is a Wonderful Thing

    "If it ain't fast....It ain't Fun"

  8. #18
    Site Sponsor BeerBrewer's Avatar
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    This past summer I saw a small Jeep Wrangler (like the old CJ) pulling what looked like about a 35' travel trailer on Rt 76 in PA. I don't know the exact length, but it was longer than my 32' trailer. So I'm sure that the F250 will be able to tow this trailer under normal conditions, but I'd be more worried if it can stop the that heavy a trailer, especially in a panic situation.

    I've got a hypothetical question. What happens (god forbid) that you get into an accident while pulling the trailer? I'd be very worried about what the lawyers will do when they check the specs and find that you were towing more than the truck manufacturer recommends. Even if you didn't cause the accident, you could be the one held responsible.

    My advice to you is to either buy a bigger truck or shift to a travel trailer like the Relection 315RLTS. It has a similar layout and is probably within the towing specs of your truck. If sway is a concern, buy a Hensley of ProPride hitch. Better to be safe than sorry

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBrewer View Post
    This past summer I saw a small Jeep Wrangler (like the old CJ) pulling what looked like about a 35' travel trailer on Rt 76 in PA. I don't know the exact length, but it was longer than my 32' trailer. So I'm sure that the F250 will be able to tow this trailer under normal conditions, but I'd be more worried if it can stop the that heavy a trailer, especially in a panic situation.

    I've got a hypothetical question. What happens (god forbid) that you get into an accident while pulling the trailer? I'd be very worried about what the lawyers will do when they check the specs and find that you were towing more than the truck manufacturer recommends. Even if you didn't cause the accident, you could be the one held responsible.

    My advice to you is to either buy a bigger truck or shift to a travel trailer like the Relection 315RLTS. It has a similar layout and is probably within the towing specs of your truck. If sway is a concern, buy a Hensley of ProPride hitch. Better to be safe than sorry
    The situation you mentioned with the Jeep is a clear example of an obviously unsafe situation and is in no way comparable to towing a 337RLS with 2017 F250. There is not one single component on that Wrangler that is up to the task of towing a 35' travel trailer and I can assure you that it is quite obvious from the driver's seat.

    The F250 and SRW F350 have the same brakes. They will stop a trailer equally well.

    You hypothetical situation is often brought up but I have never seen any evidence of it actually happening. In nearly all accidents, someone is at fault. Driving too close, traveling too fast, tired, distracted, bald tires, dirty windshield, the list could go on indefinitely. If everyone did everything right, the only accidents would occur through an act of God. Insurance will pay. You could get sued whether it's your fault or not. That is the world we live in. If you're that worried about it, the only thing to do is stay in your house and never invite anyone over.

    What is a "bigger truck"? a SRW F350 isn't bigger than a F250. They are exactly the same size. I could easily make the case that towing a 337 with a F250 is safer that towing a 315RLTS with the same truck. I used to tow a 35', 9000 pound bumper pull trailer with a well set up WD hitch. I had no issues with that combination but there is no doubt that my 303RLS is a much more controlled towing experience.
    2019 F250 Platinum, 6.7, LB, FX4, High Capacity Tow Package
    B & W Companion
    2019 303RLS

  10. #20
    Big Traveler CWSWine's Avatar
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    I was being told that Axle Ratings and Tire ratings are the ratings you shouldn’t exceed and that GVWR wasn’t important. I keep trying to find where it stated that and could never find a link. Then I was told it just common sensed there isn’t a link.
    Here is what my research revealed to me you may read the links and get different opinion.

    https://www.mygrandrv.com/forum/show...eding-the-GVWR

    By Bob Raybuck
Director of Technical Services
NTEA
    Often, GVWR and gross vehicle weight (GVW) are thought to be the same, but they are not. A truck’s GVWR is the maximum weight rating established by the chassis manufacturer. GVW is the total weight of the truck and payload at a point in time.

    There’s a common misconception that a truck’s GVWR is determined by adding gross axle weight ratings (GAWRs) together for all axles. Although this was a common way of calculating GVWR many years ago, it’s no longer an accurate method. The chassis manufacturer task of establishing a vehicle GVWR is much more difficult today due to advancement of safety system standards and how vehicles meet these requirements. This is why many trucks have a GVWR much lower than the combined axle ratings. It is not uncommon for a truck with a GVWR of 19,500 pounds to have a front axle rated at 7,500 pounds and a rear axle rated at 14,700 pounds. Safety standards that apply to braking, vehicle stability, and chassis manufacturer internal standards for durability, dynamic stability and handling can restrict GVWR even though the sum of the axle ratings exceeds 22,000 pounds. In this instance, the OEM set the GVWR at 19,500 pounds based on test results and vehicle dynamic performance to ensure a safe, reliable truck.

    By Bob Raybuck
Director of Technical Services
NTEA “


    https://www.ntea.com/NTEA/Member_ben...rk_trucks.aspx



    SAE J2807 Tow Standard States that exceeding the GVWR is a reason to fail

    5.4 GVWR/Rear GAWR and Tongue Weight/Kingpin Weight Considerations

    The tow vehicle shall be able to accommodate appropriate trailer tongue and/or kingpin weight to attain a particular TWR without exceeding Rear GAWR and/or GVWR. Required minimum conventional trailer tongue weight shall be 10% of TWR and required minimum fifth wheel or gooseneck trailer kingpin weight shall be 15% of TWR.

    TWR = Trailer Weight Rating

    http://fifthwheelst.com/documents/to...ds-2016-02.pdf

    ======================================


    Here is what it says in the owner manual and tow guides.

    “Note:
    Trailer tongue (trailer king pin for 5th-wheel towing) load weight should be 10% (15% for 5th-wheel towing) of total loaded trailer weight. Make sure vehicle payload (reduce by option weight) will accommodate trailer tongue (trailer king pin for 5th-wheel towing) load weight and weight of passengers and cargo added to towing vehicle. Addition of trailer tongue (trailer king pin for 5th-wheel towing) load weight and weight of passengers and cargo must not cause vehicle weights to exceed rear GAWR or GVWR. These ratings can be found on the vehicle Federal Safety Compliance Certification Label.
    Link
    https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content...tyPU_Nov27.pdf
    =========================

    Next I contacted GMC Commercial Sales and ask about exceeding GVWR and loaded to GAWR and they sent me this link and this is the GMC official position.

    http://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/how-to/u...-weight-rating

    Overloading your truck or SUV can carry severe consequences, including:
    * Broken springs and suspension components due to excess weight
    * Brakes unable to stop the truck or SUV in a timely manner
    * Transmission and other driveline components may overheat and sustain serious damage
    * Unusual suspension behavior, making the vehicle hard to control
    * Tire temperatures rising to elevated levels, potentially leading to a blowout

    http://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/how-to/u...-weight-rating

    I believe that it is very slim chance that you going to get ticketed for being over your trucks GVWR of even the GAWR/GCWR/tire ratings. My research turned to the legal side started at the link below.

    “Towing in excess of the vehicle manufactures’s weight limits could not only prove dangerous but could be considered negligent In the event of an accident with an overweight personal vehicle, you could be held responsible for higher awards in a lawsuit for damages to other people, vehicles or property.”
    Link: http://www.personalinjuryclaimsblawg...ity-for-rvers/

    Still not total convinced I made an appointment with my trusted family lawyer and he explained how manufactures specs on all kinds of products are used in civil court to gain higher awards and there doesn’t have to be a law prohibiting exceeding manufacture specs to play a role in court. The other question you might want to ask is what happens if a lawsuit exceeds my limits on my insurance policy and how to protect yourself. That question can’t be answered unless someone knows what assets would be exposed and what’s your income level. That was an eye opening meeting.

    Also check with the local State Patrol, DOT scales operator, and a CDL Training center they agreed you should never exceed you GVWR and load to GAWR.

    This is where my research led me and now I’m going to called the weight police and attacked. Your research may lead you in a different conclusion. Everything in life has risk but you have decided if the rewards are worth the risk. In my case towing above GVWR was not worth the risk.

    What seemed strange to me that GVWR, GAWR GCWR, tire ratings are all manufacture ratings why would ignore just one but GAWR is not to be exceeded.
    Last edited by CWSWine; 10-29-2019 at 05:30 PM.
    Dennis & Ellie
    Current 2017 Newmar Ventana Class A & 1994 Airstream Excella Classic Limited Project
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