Truck silliness and F250 diesel weights

[Overtaxed]

Using a ski rope to climbing a mountain isn’t against the law and if you fall it’s your fault but if you injury some else than it becomes a problem.

Actually, it's kind of funny you use this example, I've done my share of rock climbing, and yes, it's VERY common that someone else's negligence winds up in you being hurt. Not holding the rope tight enough, kicking (accidentally of course) scree down the mountain and someone getting hurt by it, and yes, using crappy ropes (or protection equipment). I've never heard of a lawsuit for this though, it's a foreseeable risk of rock climbing and, unless you can prove that the other person's actions were deliberate, well.. Good luck. Shoot, people climb WITHOUT ropes sometimes, and yes, they fall and die. And yes, if you're behind them when they fall, they could hurt you/kill you. Maybe you could sue, maybe you'd even win, but unless its truly over the top ridiculous, climbing a 5.14 on the first climb, tennis shoes, kicking rocks down the mountain, etc, I'm not sure you're going to get much sympathy.

People get hurt all the time through other's negligence. Yes, I'm sure if you were overweight in a truck and got in a wreck, it would be one of the things the attorney would look at. Just like they'd look at your worn windshield wipers, your tires that are below the tread wear indicators, brakes that are 1000 miles into the squealers, etc. There is ALWAYS something wrong, shoot, there's something wrong with my brand new 250 (it has a recall out on it and I've not yet taken it in). Probably have low tire pressure too, it's real cold out tonight. But, point is, you could be hauling a single axle landscape trailer with a tractor trailer, guess what? There's still something wrong (tires out of date perhaps, not entirely level, etc).

Now, this isn't to say your wrong, in fact, I think you're right. But I'm not sure that a F450 with a 8K trailer protects you very much here, you hurt/kill someone in a accident, guess what? You're getting sued and your insurance company will probably settle. 1K over payload, 1K under, doesn't matter very much other than the arguments that each side will/would make.

My 1 ton SRW with my Reflection 367BHS exceeds payload by 10lbs, but is under RAWR so Im not concerned.

I wouldn't be concerned with that setup either. 10lbs just over a gallon of fuel, that's "close enough" for me. And I agree on the rating that I'd be (and am) more concerned about, RAWR. Which is kind of an interesting story on my truck. My tires combined weight rating is significantly higher than my RAWR (more than 1000 lbs). The axle itself is rated much higher too. So, the only thing I can figure, the springs/shocks are the limiting factor. An F350 can have the exact same tire/wheel combo, same axle, so.... Where's the increase in RAWR? Gotta be because of the extra/overload spring, that's all I can figure (given how similar the 250/350 in nearly every hardware component outside of the spring packs). Well, that's an easy one for me to rectify, add a leaf/bags..

Taking the rig out for it's run out/maiden voyage tomorrow. Definately going to take all the truck tires to max PSI, I was going off the door sticker and it's significantly lower than what's on the tire sidewall and what the 350 recommends (80PSI). Other than that, wish me luck I guess? Still no bags installed, but I do think that will help quite a bit in giving me some space for suspension movement. Honestly though, if anything I'm shocked at how well the suspension did, I figured I'd be right on the bumpers and I still had ~2in left.

[Overtaxed]

The maiden voyage was very interesting. Learned a lot. Now, being me, I didn't go 10 miles down the street, I went 300 miles to a campsite up in the mountains of TN. But that's my intended use of it, we all know the 250 will tow it on flat roads, shoot, I could do that with a Ford Ranger. So, if I was going to test it, darn it, I was going to test it in the real world.

Most of it was good/great. It was far less exciting to drive than I had expected. The one thing that I hadn't expected in the "general driving" category, OMG, expansion joints and crappy highways (at 60MPH).. Ugh, they are awful. A decent road, yeah, I could really "forget" it was back there. Nice and smooth, so smooth, in fact, that it was almost unnerving at times. But a road that's tore up, wow, it feels like something is going to "break". You can see the Goosebox doing it's magic in the back, and it's still rough as hell, I can only imagine how much worse it would be with a solid connection. Anyway, that was the "bad" part in general.

Now to the truck specifically. Most of the driving was wonderful/perfect. Flats, uphills and yes, even a strong crosswind. All of it felt "good" and controllable. The strong crosswind, yes, that's new, even though my dump trailer weighs more, it doesn't behave like that in the wind. Again, not awful, but I'm glad people talked about it and explained it, you certainly feel the trailer back there pushing you around.

The bad... I did have white knuckles a few times, and this is what I wanted to talk about, is this my inexperience, or is this something really dangerous that a bigger truck (or some upgrades) would fix? The bad was downhills, some of them pretty steep, where I was engine braking primarily (or exclusively). There would be an occasional sensation of "slipping", like I'd hit a small patch of ice (which I didn't). No tire squeal, no loss of control, just a heart stopping second of "oh ********" because that feeling is usually associated with something real bad about to happen. It scared me so badly that I rode every downhill with my hands on the brake controller ready to engage it if the back end started to come around. In my head, I worked out some physics that could explain what I'm feeling, but this is where I need some expertise, anyone else feel that, is it normal, is it dangerous, and what fixes it if so (duallie, bags, sway bars, etc). The physics in my head go like this, heavy trailer trying to push me down the hill at a slightly different angle than I'm trying to go downhill and pushes the back end of the truck in the way it wants to go, causing the back end to slide in the direction, creating the feeling of a slip (or a hydroplane, that's also kind of what it felt like). I have NO idea if that's right or not, and, frankly, with that much weight on the rear tires, my mind started doing some thinking, it would take a massive amount of force to move those tires sideways when they are being pushed that hard into the pavement. Didn't help calm my nerves though, I'd chug up the uphills happily, but the downhills, I was always on alert because of that feeling.

Anyway, overall a successful trip, certainly learned a lot, and the Momentum was nearly perfect, we have a "dealer fix" list but it only has 3 items on it, all very minor. I was impressed with that, I've had bigger "dealer fix" lists on new high end luxury cars that have a whole lot less going on that a rolling house! In case anyone cares, the 2 biggest issues we ran into, the wall opposite the island contacts the island when the slides are all the way in and damaged the wall. And the rear awing (over the back steps, not the patio) is installed backwards?! It's upside down when you roll it out. That one we both kind of laughed out when we saw it, how does that happen?!

[JKellerJr]

The bad... I did have white knuckles a few times, and this is what I wanted to talk about, is this my inexperience, or is this something really dangerous that a bigger truck (or some upgrades) would fix? The bad was downhills, some of them pretty steep, where I was engine braking primarily (or exclusively). There would be an occasional sensation of "slipping", like I'd hit a small patch of ice (which I didn't). No tire squeal, no loss of control, just a heart stopping second of "oh ********" because that feeling is usually associated with something real bad about to happen. It scared me so badly that I rode every downhill with my hands on the brake controller ready to engage it if the back end started to come around. In my head, I worked out some physics that could explain what I'm feeling, but this is where I need some expertise, anyone else feel that, is it normal, is it dangerous, and what fixes it if so (duallie, bags, sway bars, etc). The physics in my head go like this, heavy trailer trying to push me down the hill at a slightly different angle than I'm trying to go downhill and pushes the back end of the truck in the way it wants to go, causing the back end to slide in the direction, creating the feeling of a slip (or a hydroplane, that's also kind of what it felt like). I have NO idea if that's right or not, and, frankly, with that much weight on the rear tires, my mind started doing some thinking, it would take a massive amount of force to move those tires sideways when they are being pushed that hard into the pavement. Didn't help calm my nerves though, I'd chug up the uphills happily, but the downhills, I was always on alert because of that feeling.

Well its hard to know exactly what your feeling not being there but I would guess your feeling a surge from the weight of the trailer pushing on the truck occasionally. If your only using the exhaust brake then the trailer is freewheeling and pushing the truck and when the exhaust brake kicks up a notch you get a surge from the trailer for a second or two. (my ram had a much smother exhaust brake than my GMC does. I frankly don't like my GMC exhaust brake) If your not actually slipping its probably just a over sensitive feeling being new at this and being hyper focused. Using some trailer brake when you feel it should take take of that but you don't want to ride the brakes all the way down. Bags may help if what your feeling is the suspension compressing. This is the main reason why dually's feel more stable, the stiffer suspension and if the suspension really tightens up the extra 2 wheels may come into play.

I've run up and down the Rockies and can't say I have felt anything like what you are describing. I do have a higher capacity tire and air bags from stock and a 3500 will also have a stiffer suspension stock

[Overtaxed]

Well its hard to know exactly what your feeling not being there but I would guess your feeling a surge from the weight of the trailer pushing on the truck occasionally. If your only using the exhaust brake then the trailer is freewheeling and pushing the truck and when the exhaust brake kicks up a notch you get a surge from the trailer for a second or two. (my ram had a much smother exhaust brake than my GMC does. I frankly don't like my GMC exhaust brake) If your not actually slipping its probably just a over sensitive feeling being new at this and being hyper focused. Using some trailer brake when you feel it should take take of that but you don't want to ride the brakes all the way down. Bags may help if what your feeling is the suspension compressing. This is the main reason why dually's feel more stable, the stiffer suspension and if the suspension really tightens up the extra 2 wheels may come into play.

That's exactly what it feels like, the trailer pushing on the truck and the rear end getting "light" (when it's anything but!).

The hardest thing, of course, is without feeling it, there's no way to for you to know (or me) what exactly it is. But the fear for me was the truck coming around on me, the trailer pushing the rear of the truck around the truck. The feeling was unsettling, but the thought of "what could happen" is really what unsettled me. So, let me ask, is that even possible (well, anything is possible, is it likely)? Think, coming down a steep hill and making a sharp right turn at the bottom of the hill, does it happen where the trailer pushes the rear of the truck so hard that the back tires slide out? Seems like it could happen, but is it likely/common? There's a lot of weight pushing in the "other" direction there, but there's also a LOT of weight on those tires, you'd think that those two forces would be somewhat counteracting one another. I mean, you come around a turn fast enough with an empty truck, eventually the rear will come out on you, so of course it COULD, but does having a trailer/lot of pin weight back there (which would seem to help) vs the trailer trying to "push" the truck the "wrong way" (which would seem to hurt) is it more a "feeling" that I need to get used to, or is it a real issue I need to keep in mind? This would also seem to be where a duallie would be "better", more rubber on the road preventing the ****** from coming around on you in this situation, would that also be true?

[Walaby]

Can't say I've experienced what you are describing with my 1 ton and my 5er (Reflection 367BHS). But, I also have not had it in the mountains/hills much either.

With my prior TV (Ram 2500) and my prior TT, I never had that experience at all going down hill . EB worked magically and never event remotely had a concern about lack of control. Of course, that was a TT, not a 5er.

Wonder if this is a function of the gooseneck vice traditional 5er hitch? Have no idea if that makes sense or not.

Mike

[tamrick]

That's the pushing around I felt with my Ram 3500 shortbed SRW with my 12700 Cedar Creek. I love the Ram exhaust brake. When I switched to the long bed dually, it all but disappeared. I get very little pushing with my current Ford dually and 351M.

[geotex1]

Not a function of Goosebox versus traditional 5er hitch - I've towed with both. In my opinion, and without being there, it's the combination of what was already explained - engine braking only with serious free-wheeling mass pushing - and teetering of the trailer causing the force vectors at the hitch point to shift putting less normal force (the force keeping axle planted) and more force parallel to the plane of movement. This is hard for me to explain in words, but it is basic physics that can be modeled in a free body diagram of forces. This is why professional drivers are taught to never free wheel a trailer down steep grades. Braking the trailer helps keep the normal force vector where it needs to be. In my opinion, you just need to change your towing habits to regain confidence. Also, your pin might be a little light and exacerbating the effect.

[JKellerJr]

That's exactly what it feels like, the trailer pushing on the truck and the rear end getting "light" (when it's anything but!).

The hardest thing, of course, is without feeling it, there's no way to for you to know (or me) what exactly it is. But the fear for me was the truck coming around on me, the trailer pushing the rear of the truck around the truck. The feeling was unsettling, but the thought of "what could happen" is really what unsettled me. So, let me ask, is that even possible (well, anything is possible, is it likely)? Think, coming down a steep hill and making a sharp right turn at the bottom of the hill, does it happen where the trailer pushes the rear of the truck so hard that the back tires slide out? Seems like it could happen, but is it likely/common? There's a lot of weight pushing in the "other" direction there, but there's also a LOT of weight on those tires, you'd think that those two forces would be somewhat counteracting one another. I mean, you come around a turn fast enough with an empty truck, eventually the rear will come out on you, so of course it COULD, but does having a trailer/lot of pin weight back there (which would seem to help) vs the trailer trying to "push" the truck the "wrong way" (which would seem to hurt) is it more a "feeling" that I need to get used to, or is it a real issue I need to keep in mind? This would also seem to be where a duallie would be "better", more rubber on the road preventing the ****** from coming around on you in this situation, would that also be true?

Without either slippery road conditions or a very violent maneuver i would say it is extremely unlikely that it could happen. Could a dually help? possibly, just unlikely Also duallys have a rep of not handling snow as well as a single. Look it happens to semi's with 8 tires and way higher pin weights in the right conditions.

The biggest issue is not with the truck its the brakes on the trailer. I have my controller set to the max and I still don't feel the trailer has enough braking power (and I have replaced the stock one with made in USA dexters) which puts more pressure on the truck brakes. You want to fell better in all conditions, upgrade the trailer to disks.

[Overtaxed]

Not a function of Goosebox versus traditional 5er hitch - I've towed with both. In my opinion, and without being there, it's the combination of what was already explained - engine braking only with serious free-wheeling mass pushing - and teetering of the trailer causing the force vectors at the hitch point to shift putting less normal force (the force keeping axle planted) and more force parallel to the plane of movement. This is hard for me to explain in words, but it is basic physics that can be modeled in a free body diagram of forces. This is why professional drivers are taught to never free wheel a trailer down steep grades. Braking the trailer helps keep the normal force vector where it needs to be. In my opinion, you just need to change your towing habits to regain confidence. Also, your pin might be a little light and exacerbating the effect.

Yup, that's exactly what I'm modeling in my head. Trailer, truck. -/ (trailer trying to go straight, truck trying to turn left, lots of force trying to make the rear end continue going straight). And yes, as you suggested, it did seem to help keep the feeling away to squeeze the trailer brakes a bit, everything felt a lot more planted. Which is why, when I got a feel for it, I started to think it was the forces you were describing because braking seemed to "fix it".

I had no idea that pros didn't freewheel the trailers down a steep grade! Thanks for that little nugget of info, I've always done it that way, using engine brakes (or exhaust brakes) instead of my truck brakes to "save" them in case I really need to haul it down. So, let me ask, when you're driving roads like this, how would you do it? Let the engine brake slow the truck and keep your hand on the trailer brakes applying a bit? Dragging them or little shots of braking?

Really helpful, learn something new every day, so glad I asked!

[backtrack2015]

Yup, that's exactly what I'm modeling in my head. Trailer, truck. -/ (trailer trying to go straight, truck trying to turn left, lots of force trying to make the rear end continue going straight). And yes, as you suggested, it did seem to help keep the feeling away to squeeze the trailer brakes a bit, everything felt a lot more planted. Which is why, when I got a feel for it, I started to think it was the forces you were describing because braking seemed to "fix it".

I had no idea that pros didn't freewheel the trailers down a steep grade! Thanks for that little nugget of info, I've always done it that way, using engine brakes (or exhaust brakes) instead of my truck brakes to "save" them in case I really need to haul it down. So, let me ask, when you're driving roads like this, how would you do it? Let the engine brake slow the truck and keep your hand on the trailer brakes applying a bit? Dragging them or little shots of braking?

Really helpful, learn something new every day, so glad I asked!

Based on the feeling you described, I guess I'd probably let the exhaust brake handle everything on the straights but then put some light pressure on the brake controller just before and during the tight corners if that helps. I'm with you though, I was taught to gear-down and use the exhaust brake. If I have to brake on a long downhill in a normal car, I brake relatively strongly and drop 20 mph or so. Then let the revs creep back up slowly until I brake again. Luckily my mountain driving is all in the west, so I rarely have anyone behind me on steep inclines. My level of tolerance for odd sensations while towing is relatively low, so I can definitely understand why you want to figure this out.