Truck silliness and F250 diesel weights

**Overtaxed** · 12-03-2019, 09:51 AM

According to all three attorneys, insurance will pay up front, al least in my state. All three quoted cases that judge made awards to the insurance companies in the amount of claims and legal cost to be paid by the driver. They also assured me that they can’t take you home but can attach to the equity if you ever sell they get the equity in your home. That alone made me decided that ratings do matter.

I find this very difficult to believe. Perhaps if they can prove you intentionally did it, maybe, they could come after you personally. But think about it, what we're talking about here is liability insurance. It's right in the name, it's insurance when you've done something wrong and are LIABLE for the damages because of your incorrect actions. Run a stop light? Well, you're liable for it. Truck overweight and a wheel flies off into traffic? Same thing, you did something wrong, and your liable. And, perhaps the worst of all, driving drunk and kill someone? Oh, you better believe you're insurance company is gonna drop you like a hot potato, but, there gonna pay. If all an insurance company had to do to extinguish a liability claim is show that you did something wrong to cause the accident, well.. Liability insurance would be REAL cheap, because it's primary purpose is to insure you when you are in the wrong.

Is over GVWR a different "class" of wrong than driving drunk or just playing words with friends and killing someone? I really don't know. Perhaps you could say it was done intentionally/maliciously, and, in that case, yes, it's possible they'd have some wiggle room to not pay. If someone falls off your shaky steps during a party and breaks their ankle, yeah, you're gonna be liable, and they are gonna pay. If you intentionally loosened the step to try to hurt someone, that's where it could be denied. But I think they would have to prove intent to injure, rather than just negligence (like if you knew the step was loose, forgot to fix and didn't tell you guest). Negligence is what liability is intended to cover, not actions designed to harm/injure another person. I think that would be a real hard road to tow for them though especially if their case on "intent to harm" is based off a truck that's been "sticker derated" like the F250. Now, if you're trying to tow a 35K gooseneck dual tandem with a Ford Ranger, well, I'd like their argument a little better, but when you're dealing with a truck that's mechanically capable of it? I'm thinking the "not a big enough number on the sticker" is going to be a tough road to try to get to "intentionally tried to harm" and invalidate your insurance.

**Calnca** · 12-03-2019, 09:59 AM

There is a little clause in most insurance contracts called Subrogation....meaning after defending you and paying for your negligence they will subrogate against the NEGLIGENT party......which if you were hauling a Momentum with your tricked out F250 means YOU.

But what do I know, I've only been a commercial auto underwriter for 50+ years.

**Overtaxed** · 12-03-2019, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Calnca

There is a little clause in most insurance contracts called Subrogation....meaning after defending you and paying for your negligence they will subrogate against the NEGLIGENT party......which if you were hauling a Momentum with your tricked out F250 means YOU.

Well, that's about the most terrifying thing I've ever heard. I'm aware of subrogation, but I thought it was only applied from insurance company to insurance company (my company pays because I have collision and then goes after the negligent party's insurance for reimbursement). You're saying that they can personally subrogate the liability to the insured party! Have you ever seen it happen? In what cases? Are some negligence types (run a red light vs running 1000lbs over yellow sticker) more likely to be subrogated?

I guess I just struggle to understand, if your liability insurance is paying, you are negligent. Could be a million different reasons, playing with your iPhone and rear end someone, don't do the maintenance on your truck and the tire blows out causing a wreck, causing a wreck because you're overweight, drunk.. So what determines when they subrogate and when they do not? I'd think it'd be real easy for them to do it on nearly 100% of liability cases, so there must be some rhyme/reason when they decide to do it and when they do not?

**carnolddsm** · 12-03-2019, 10:33 AM

Perhaps the definition of subrogation has changed, but traditionally it is the legal principle that allows a third party like
an insurance company to act on your behalf. Subrogation does not give the insurance company the power to recover amounts they pay in liability claims from the holder of the liability policy.

**tamrick** · 12-03-2019, 10:34 AM

I own a 351M, Andersen hitch and dually. My rig loaded with stuff, fuel, no water and with/with out motorcycle has a pin range of 2750-2800ish or more. Remember, my pin is with the Andersen, not a conventional hitch which are 200lbs or more. That should give you an idea of how much rear axle weight you have left over. I used a 2016 Ram 3500 SRW "short bed" to tow my previous 5th wheel which weighed 12700. It pushed the Ram around alot and it did move with passing 18 wheelers. When I changed to the dually, 90% of the sway/movement disappeared with the previous rig which was not as heavy nor as large as the 351M. Wind and tow speed will always be a factor when towing one of these giant boxes, its not much to worry about with a dually. Rear axle weight is what gets used up first. Ironically, both of my GAWR numbers add up to more than the sticker GVWR. I usually watch the rear axle weight so I don't exceed the tire rating.

**Calnca** · 12-03-2019, 10:39 AM

Not saying it would be used, except for egregious negligence, which intentionally overloading a power unit could be easily construed as. It could also be construed as an "Intentional Act", which is EXCLUDED in all insurance contracts.

I often wonder in this debate if anyone ever wonders why the DOT is so manic when it comes to weight (typically axle weights) ratings and loadings on CMVs? Clearly there is hardly a Class 8 truck on the road that couldn't "pull" incredibly large loads, but they are only allowed to haul those crazy heavy loads when they add numerous axles to the trailers to support the loads. Those weight type of violations show up on CMV/CDL drivers mvrs all the time.....and yes, being overloaded HAS been part of losses I've been involved with over the years. We have a right of recovery, but the old adage of you can't get blood from a turnip is true, so we only seek restitution from insured's that have assets that can be attached.

**Overtaxed** · 12-03-2019, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by tamrick

I own a 351M, Andersen hitch and dually. My rig loaded with stuff, fuel, no water and with/with out motorcycle has a pin range of 2750-2800ish or more. Remember, my pin is with the Andersen, not a conventional hitch which are 200lbs or more. That should give you an idea of how much rear axle weight you have left over. I used a 2016 Ram 3500 SRW "short bed" to tow my previous 5th wheel which weighed 12700. It pushed the Ram around alot and it did move with passing 18 wheelers. When I changed to the dually, 90% of the sway/movement disappeared with the previous rig which was not as heavy nor as large as the 351M. Wind and tow speed will always be a factor when towing one of these giant boxes, its not much to worry about with a dually. Rear axle weight is what gets used up first. Ironically, both of my GAWR numbers add up to more than the sticker GVWR. I usually watch the rear axle weight so I don't exceed the tire rating.

Awesome info, thank you very much! I've got 3K between my RAWR and actual (loaded with fuel, 2 people, no dogs which is +100 lbs, but will spread across the axles a bit). Does the motorcycle bring the pin weight up/down much? Just curious, I've heard it can pull some off. Also, in my case, looking through the specs, the limiting factor on my RAWR are actually the springs, axle is rated much higher, tires are rated for 3750 ea (range E) or 7,500 for the pair. My RAWR is ~6400, so as long as I'm <3K lbs on the pin, I'll be in the zip code. I'm going with the Goosebox (rather than the Anderson of a 5er in the bed), so I suspect that's probably about the same weight as your setup.

No matter what, I'm going to hit the scales with this thing and see where I'm coming in. Honestly though, if it's 2800, while I'll be over my GVWR (9,900), it's not going to be ridiculously over (~1000 lbs).

I do, just to cover the bases, have a call into a local dealer to see how badly it would hurt to come out of this new 250 into a 450. I'm waiting to hear back, but I'm sure it's not gonna be a number that is going to make me feel all wonderful inside.

Also, the taxes on a 450 in SC are obscene (2X a 250; could be 4K for the first year and that 2X gap persists forever), which also pushes me to stay in the SRW class. A 350 would do it, I think I could get under weight on a SRW 350, but that's just too silly to me given the 250 and 350 are effectively the same truck with different stickers and an overload spring.

**Overtaxed** · 12-03-2019, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Calnca

We have a right of recovery, but the old adage of you can't get blood from a turnip is true, so we only seek restitution from insured's that have assets that can be attached.

Is it only overweight where you exercise this right, or do you do it for all liability claims? I'm trying to figure out if my 5M dollar umbrella is worth the paper it's printed on, because if "negligence" is enough for the insurance company to get out of paying, I'm really not sure what the heck I'm paying all this money for. If I'm liable, I was negligent in some way, didn't fix the step, didn't see the light turn red, didn't correctly load my truck or maintain it, drunk, texting.. So I'm not exactly sure what it is that I'm getting out of my umbrella if they have the right to come after me for paying on a liability claim, that's what I'm paying them to protect me from!

**JKellerJr** · 12-03-2019, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Overtaxed

I guess I just struggle to understand, if your liability insurance is paying, you are negligent. Could be a million different reasons, playing with your iPhone and rear end someone, don't do the maintenance on your truck and the tire blows out causing a wreck, causing a wreck because you're overweight, drunk.. So what determines when they subrogate and when they do not? I'd think it'd be real easy for them to do it on nearly 100% of liability cases, so there must be some rhyme/reason when they decide to do it and when they do not?

EXACTLY! Apparently insurance companies never have to pay out a dime as just about every instance where your at fault can be tied back to "negligence" Speeding, yup negligent, lose your house, The always fun "driving to fast for conditions", negligent, lose your house. The funny part is those examples are actually against the law. Haven't seen any actual law that states your NON COMMERCIAL payload sticker has any legal standing.

https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/u...ATES-CHART.pdf

"The Anti-Subrogation Rule (“ASR”) is a common law defense to subrogation. It states that a subrogated insurance company standing in the shoes of its insured cannot
bring a subrogation action against or sue its own insured".

And there is that "intentional act" again

A quick google search:

https://www.insure.com/car-insurance...egal-acts.html
https://www.simmonsandfletcher.com/c...cts-exclusion/

What is an Intentional Act Exclusion?
An Intentional Act Exclusion is a clause in a liability insurance policy that excludes coverage for injuries intentionally caused by the insured. When an insured tries to cause someone harm, this voids the insurance coverage. The “intent” that is referred to is the intent to cause harm, not the intent to do the act. Tanner v. Nationwide Mut. Fire Ins. Co., No. 07-0760 (Tex. Apr. 21, 2009). Otherwise, every time a driver intentionally ran a red light or drive in excess of the speed limit, this would void coverage and too many drivers would be considered uninsured. For more on applicability, please see the tab on the right entitled: “Will automobile liability insurance cover intentional acts?”

Hey maybe these examples are all blatant lies, I don't know. How about some actual examples to the contrary. I'm am always up for learning something.

CWSWine is right on, if your concerned talk with an attorney and your insurance company. Very sound advice.