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12-01-2019, 10:30 AM #1
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Truck silliness and F250 diesel weights
Well, count another one in the ranks of "truck tow weight hell". 2019 F250 diesel, King Ranch, 6.5' bed, wife has her heart set on a 351M.
Well, I thought I'd provide some data from the CAT scale:
Full fuel, 2 passengers:
Front Axle: 4800
Rear Axle: 3340
Gross: 8140
Ready for the real kicker here? Truck has the derate on it, so, if we look at that number as having some basis in reality.. I had more cargo carrying capacity in my F150 (about 2,500 lbs by the door sticker, vs <2K lbs here). Now, having driven them both, and using the 250 regularly with a big gooseneck dump trailer, well.. I'm left shaking my head because it's abundantly obvious that the "yellow sticker" and reality bare absolutely no relationship to one another. Hauling rock from the quarry one day, the loader went a little nuts, and I scaled at almost 30K (total) coming out (with the gooseneck dump). Now, I wasn't too happy about that, but I was more upset about it than the truck was, pulled/stopped (and dumped, surprisingly!) that much weight just fine.
The only thing I'm a little worried about is this "sway" that I hear about, I've never pulled such a physically large trailer before and I really don't know what to expect. No matter what I get, I'm going with the Goosebox, so I can keep my bed free, but I'm obviously going to be over my door sticker, GVWR, by quite a bit. I'm of the mind "give it a try and see", I know I can pull it, and I can stop it.. Just not sure about "sway" and what that's going to be like.
Anyway, just wanted to provide some real world numbers. I'm going to hit the scale again with the 351M back there and see how it looks. The number I most care about is the rear axle, rated at 6340, IIRC, and limited by the tires (again IIRC). That's one number I'd prefer not to mess with being over any significant amount on.
Thought those data points might help some others, if you care about the yellow sticker, you basically can't haul anything goose/5th wheel with a F250. The thing that really buggers me about this, I feel SO much more secure with a goose connection, it's much more solid/less float and just all around feels a lot safer to me than a tag. And yet, the best way to get the "right weight" for the yellow door sticker is to get a tag along. Could that actually be safer though? Or, laughably, trade for my F150 back, got a little more payload there and I'd be closer to the door sticker! So silly, I just wish they would give us engineering specs for what the vehicle can do rather than these government "adjusted" door stickers that obviously aren't based in anything that approaches reality. Hook up a 12K tag dump trailer to my F150 (which is what mine was rated to pull) and take it for a spin with 10K on the trailer. Then come back and take out the F250 with the gooseneck dump on it at the same weight, tell me which you feel safer in. The "overloaded" F250 or the "in spec" F150. That makes no sense at all.
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12-01-2019, 12:11 PM #2
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There is a lot of debate on this subject. It is all about your own risk aversion vs engineering skepticism over the numbers. VERY subjective. When I look at the numbers for towing my 310GK with my F250 I am well above payload. When I look at the average payload numbers on an F350 SRW I would still be at or over payload. Difference in trucks? Minimal to none.
I am comfortable pulling my 310 with my F250. Others would not be. I did add air bags for leveling (not payload) and disc brakes on the 5er (BIG difference, highly recommended). What I wish I had that the 350 has is taller gearing, but c'est la vie.Jeff and Jen
2016 F250 CC Lariat 4x4 6.7L, Firestone Airbags, Pullrite Superglide
2017 Solitude 310GK, a little solar, a little lithium, disc brakes and a few suspension mods
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin
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12-01-2019, 12:22 PM #3
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Well, I know that my Sierra 3500 DRW weighs right at 7500 empty with SWMBO and me. I scaled ours with the 390RK-R on our way home and grossed 26,500 and had 6980 on drive an 14,100 on trailer. It's still a learning curve with the 8.1 Vortec, but I did learn that I can accelerate 2-3 MPH and then drop out of tow/haul and it will let the Allision drop into OD then go back into Tow /haul and it will stay in OD.
As far as stopping, I was amazed that I got the brakes locked at 65 MPH and pulled an emergency high speed lane change with no swerve or sway with the trailer. The Morryde IS/Disc brake upgrade is on the agenda and as soon as I knew what we were after, I dropped over $1300 in brakes for the truck. How much difference having a SRW makes, I can't opine but I am sure that more than a few have made that change and probably a few went to the SRW.Last edited by ThePowells; 12-01-2019 at 12:24 PM.
Jerry & Kelly Powell
Zebulon, NC
2020 Solitude 390RK-R :target:
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12-01-2019, 12:35 PM #4
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Wow, I'm 8140 empty in a 3/4 ton and your 7500 empty in a DRW 1 ton? I see yours is a gasser, but, still, I would have expected us to come in around the same with you higher.
Honestly, if I'd known I was going down this route, I might have gone for the dually. We were looking at RVs to start, but then started into 5th wheels and thought, shoot, I already have the truck to do it... It was when I started really reading on it that I realized that all those posts about the 250 being a 350 with lower taxes (which is almost true) also comes with one other thing that I hadn't considered, that stupid yellow sticker telling me I can overload this beast of a truck by putting 5 overweight people into it and pulling a single axle landscape trailer.
It's really sway I'm most concerned about because I have no experience with it, all the trailers I've ever hauled are relatively low, much lower than a 5th wheel trailer, that's for sure. I think I understand the concept, gust of wind from the side, kicks the rear wheels out from under you and slide out. But is that actually what happens? Or is it just an uncomfortable feeling? Like the rear end is drifting a bit, but not actually walking sideways/causing a loss of control?
Government... Wow, the crap they come up with and then the crap the companies to come up with to get right around whatever they came up with. So silly/waste of time. The 250 shouldn't even exist, it should just be straight from 1/2 ton to 1 ton and then onto 1T+ dualies. As far as I can figure, the only reason a 250 exists is to put a derated yellow sticker in there for lower tax purposes.
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12-01-2019, 01:37 PM #5
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I haven't CAT scaled it yet, but 7500 was my tare weight last time we went to the salvage yard and dumped scrap. I know theirs had to be certified every so often.
Jerry & Kelly Powell
Zebulon, NC
2020 Solitude 390RK-R :target:
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12-01-2019, 02:19 PM #6
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I'm not saying your wrong, just surprised. Gotta be the diesel vs gas, just figured you'd pick up more weight with the dually and the overload springs; putting us about even. Apparently not (although, to be fair, my truck did have 2 people in it and was filled to the brim with fuel, I wanted to get our "going on a trip" weight).
So, that said, what's "sway" and how does a dually prevent it/make it better? I'm just about through the list in my head of possible reasons NOT to do this, can the truck take it, can the axle take it, can the tires take it. All seem to be OK. But "sway" is the unknown to me, I've pulled boats, flatbeds, landscape trailers, the GN dump.. I've never had anything "scary" when a truck passes me, or when I'm in a crosswind. And people often talk about this as the "big thing" with a dually, so I want to understand what to expect if I decide to try this. Is there so much sail area on this thing it pushes the rear tires out from under the truck? Or is it just not as stable under hard braking? Or is it something else entirely?
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12-01-2019, 02:25 PM #7
I don’t know much about GM’s but that weight difference sounds about right. In a Ford you lose about 800lbs of payload with a diesel which is why a 250/2500 has such a low rating that is close to 150/1500. De-rating a truck is for those states that make you pay extra over 10k so you kinda have to take those rating with a grain of salt and lots of opinions on the net about it, right or wrong. My 2 cents.
2022 F350 DRW - Lariat, LBCC, 4x4, 7.3L, 4.30 gears
2018 Imagine 2150RB (SOLD)
2005 Four Wheel Camper, Grandby (Slide-in Popup)
2020 Reflection 337RLS (SOLD)
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12-01-2019, 05:49 PM #8
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You may want to double check that weight. At CAT Scale I was at 9140 with 60 gallons or so of diesel fuel (with OEM and auxiliary tank I can carry 81 gallons), me and typical tools I keep in the bed of the truck. F-350 CC DRW. Based on my door sticker with a GVWR of 14000 lbs and payload rating of 5507 lbs. it seems Ford has my truck “dry” weight at 8493 lbs.The Adams - 2017 Reflection 367BHS, 2019 F-350 6.7L PSD 4x4 CC DRW, B&W hitch on Ford pucks, Air Lift Loadlifter 5000 Ultimate Plus air bags, "Rupert" the Weimaraner.
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12-01-2019, 05:49 PM #9
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Well, a little investigation. My tires are rated at 3750 ea, the Sterling 10.5, from everything I read is way overbuilt, the MFGR rates it at close to 10K. Sooo.. I've got a little more comfort now, the posted rear GAWR is based on the "most limited" component, which, in my case, appears to be springs (no overload). That's an easy fix, and, before someone says it, still NOT entirely (or at all) legal. Honestly, if this situation wasn't so silly, and there were "real numbers" on the truck that I was exceeding, I'd be much more worried. But, in my case (and likely with all F250's) the numbers are make believe to fit into government regulations. I feel a lot better knowing the rating of everything that would be carrying it and seeing I'm well within all the engineering limits, just not the "yellow sticker" limits.
So, we'll see how it goes. However, the unanswered question.. What is "sway" and what makes a duallie so much better at preventing it? Is it dangerous, uncomfortable, annoying/tiring.. Just trying to get a handle on what it is and how to look for it (and how to prevent it/recover from it).
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12-01-2019, 07:13 PM #10
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Welcome to the world of RV towing. The yellow stickers are designed to keep the average idiot safe. I have over grossed many times, but with knowledge that I was doing so. You obviously understand the principals involved, the advantages, dangers, etc. Factors that are little discussed are terrain and distance. I love stories like: " I tow my 17k 5th wheel in Florida just fine". Try that over Hoosier Pass in Colorado babycakes.
I have been 15k to 20k for nearly 8 years, all across America several times. I am a firm believer that more is better. Sure you can get away with smaller in a lot of conditions, but in other conditions it's dangerous. Each of us must make our own evaluations and do our own risk analysis.
Sway. Sway is the trailer tail swinging left then right, left then right, repeat. It is generally caused by incorrect loading of weight. Too much far back, too much forward. On bumper hitch trailers they have sway control bars, basically little brakes that keep the swing to a minimum. No such thing on a 5th wheel. But, 5th wheels are less susceptible to sway because of the way/location they are attached. Fodder for a few hundred more posts....
My serious experiences with sway; 1. Hauling hay in Kansas. Afternoon winds pick up and I am 5 bails high. Wind kicking almost 90 degrees. Overloaded as usual. Wind pushes the hay on the trailer that pushes on the hitch that makes the truck go a different direction than what I am steering. Ever steer right to go left, that's some serious sway.
2. 24' TT. Not loaded correctly. Little trailer started swinging back and forth. I installed a sway control device that helped some, but it wasn't until I discovered correct loading of the trailer that I actually got it under control. 3. Giant 5th wheel racing down hill in a wind storm. It was Washington, coming down off the pass. Wind was up. Suddenly the whole rig started swinging left then right and back again. My new Ford F450 blinked a warning on the dash, I was too busy trying to keep from crashing to read it carefully, but something about sway or swing or something. I mashed on the brakes and got everything slowed down till the swing went away. Over 10k miles, it was a ten second incident, but I remember it.
Dually or not. Back to individual choice. Numbers are indicators of capability. Each of us must interpolate these numbers to decide what is best for us, individually. I like duallies because of the side to side stability, (Kansas). Other like them because of the weight ratings. 1500, 2500, 3500, 4500 gas vs diesel. We all must evaluate our own needs against the environment that we are towing in. I am super heavy at 20,000 pound trailer plus the stuff on the truck. I tow all across American and mostly in the Rocky Mountains. I tow across the wind blown plains of America. I tow in thunderstorms and once in a hurricane.
If you are careful and timid you can get away with a lot of towing in an itty bitty truck. But if you are going to push the envelope, more is better.Dallas
2017 Momentum 376TH, 2019 Ford F450, Dual Rear Wheel, 4x4, diesel.
2015 Harley-Davidson Street, XG750
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