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Thread: tow vehicle

  1. #11
    Site Sponsor Jerryr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBrewer View Post
    Jerryr, if you read the towing spec (J2807) you'll see that the "testers" already made some allowances for some passenger weight, options and hitch weight, so you don't need to add them again. This is also mentioned in note 7 on the 2017 RAM 3500 HEAVY DUTY TOWING CHART that was attached to one of the posts. It reads as follows:
    "Trailer Weight Rating and Tow Vehicle Trailering Weight are calculated as specified in SAE J2807.Passenger Weight = 300 lbOptions Weight = 100 lbTrailering Equipment Weight: 75 lb for Conventional Hitch, 70 lb for Gooseneck and 250 lb for 5th Wheel.Tongue weight: 10 percent of the gross trailer weight for Conventional Hitch, 15 percent of the gross trailer weight for a 5th Wheel or Gooseneck hitch."

    Adding the weight in again isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just adds a bit more of a safety cushion.
    Too many assumptions. You must look at real world weights.

    As I stated earlier, the likely limiting factor will be Payload, not SAE J2807 published Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight. In most cases you will exceed Payload Well before you reach Published Max Weight Trailer.

    The assumption of SAE J2807 is 15% of gross trailer weight for a 5th wheel. That’s not real world for current 5th wheel RVs. Most of us run 20-23%.

    My 337RLS as delivered from the factory weight sheet has a pin weight of 2,220 lbs with total weight of 10,640 lbs, for 20.9%. That’s even without batteries or propane. When lightly loaded to travel the pin weight is 2900 lbs and total 13,000 lbs or 22.3%.

    My truck weighs 7,977 lbs EMPTY. That is why the payload is 3,523 lbs (11,500-7,977)

    While the Ford Towing guide states Max Loaded Trailer Weight of my F350 Diesel SRW @15,000 lbs I’m at 3,523 lbs max payload at @ only 13,000 lbs trailer weight, 2 people, small dog and lightweight Andersen hitch.
    Last edited by Jerryr; 01-08-2020 at 04:50 PM.
    Jerry & Linda
    Emma & Abby our Mini Golden Doodles & JR our Amazon Parrot
    2017 Reflection 337RLS, Build Date 01/2017, Titan Disk Brakes, Goodyear G614s 235/85/16 G Rated tires
    2022 F-450 King Ranch Ultimate, 4,868 lb Payload, Bedrug Bedliner, Andersen Ultimate II Aluminum 5th wheel hitch
    http://visitedstatesmap.com/image/FLGANCSCsm.jpg

  2. #12
    Site Sponsor BeerBrewer's Avatar
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    First, I agree that payload is an issue, but I think you missed my point. When they tested the trucks capacity's (payload, towing etc) they did so with 300 lbs of passengers, 100 lbs of options and included hitch wt (5 lb for Conventional Hitch, 70 lb for Gooseneck and 250 lb for 5th Wheel) added into the truck when they did the testing. So for example, lets say they state that a trucks payload capacity is 3000 lbs that already includes 300 lbs for passengers. So if your passengers weigh 500 lbs, then your payload drops to 2800 (2800 = 3000 + 300 - 500). That's all I was saying, nothing more. Lastly I totally agree with what you've written about pin wt on a 5th wheel.

  3. #13
    Site Sponsor Jerryr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBrewer View Post
    First, I agree that payload is an issue, but I think you missed my point. When they tested the trucks capacity's (payload, towing etc) they did so with 300 lbs of passengers, 100 lbs of options and included hitch wt (5 lb for Conventional Hitch, 70 lb for Gooseneck and 250 lb for 5th Wheel) added into the truck when they did the testing. So for example, lets say they state that a trucks payload capacity is 3000 lbs that already includes 300 lbs for passengers. So if your passengers weigh 500 lbs, then your payload drops to 2800 (2800 = 3000 + 300 - 500). That's all I was saying, nothing more. Lastly I totally agree with what you've written about pin wt on a 5th wheel.
    I understand your point where the chart’s published Trailer capacity weight is published with assumptions of 300 lbs passengers, 100 lbs options, included hitch of either 70 lbs or 250 lbs depending on hitch used when tested, and assumption on 10% hitch weight or 15% 5th wheel pin weight when tested.

    But SAE J2807, using assumptions above calculates Maximum Trailer Weight Rating”. It does not calculate Payload.

    Payload is SIMPLY; GVWR - truck weight with full fuel.

    Your statement that Payload capacity already includes 300 lbs for passengers is incorrect
    Jerry & Linda
    Emma & Abby our Mini Golden Doodles & JR our Amazon Parrot
    2017 Reflection 337RLS, Build Date 01/2017, Titan Disk Brakes, Goodyear G614s 235/85/16 G Rated tires
    2022 F-450 King Ranch Ultimate, 4,868 lb Payload, Bedrug Bedliner, Andersen Ultimate II Aluminum 5th wheel hitch
    http://visitedstatesmap.com/image/FLGANCSCsm.jpg

  4. #14
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    Exactly right Jerryr

    J2807 establishes testing and max trailer weight parameters, it does not establish how payload is calculated.

    Two totally different things. BeerBrewer - think you were in on a previous discussion on RV.net, same subject, same conclusion.

    Mike
    Im Mike Willoughby, and I approve this message.
    2017 Ram 3500 CTD (aka FRAM)
    2019 Grand Design Reflection 367BHS

  5. #15
    Site Sponsor BeerBrewer's Avatar
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    You both totally missed my point....totally. I never said that they use those weight assumptions to calculate the maximum trailer weight rating. The J2807 is testing spec, not a design spec. All they do is attempt to verify the numbers that manufactures claim.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBrewer View Post
    First, I agree that payload is an issue, but I think you missed my point. When they tested the trucks capacity's (payload, towing etc) they did so with 300 lbs of passengers, 100 lbs of options and included hitch wt (5 lb for Conventional Hitch, 70 lb for Gooseneck and 250 lb for 5th Wheel) added into the truck when they did the testing. So for example, lets say they state that a trucks payload capacity is 3000 lbs that already includes 300 lbs for passengers. So if your passengers weigh 500 lbs, then your payload drops to 2800 (2800 = 3000 + 300 - 500). That's all I was saying, nothing more. Lastly I totally agree with what you've written about pin wt on a 5th wheel.
    The point is, these are two different things. J2807 has nothing to do with calculating payload. In your example above, if your trucks payload is 3000 and you have passengers that weigh 500 lbs, your remaining payload is 2500, not 2800. The 300 lbs they are testing with comes off the payload of the vehicle.

    In essence the testing assumes a passenger weight of 300lbs, which absolutely comes off the payload. It is not "included" in the payload calculation.

    Mike
    Im Mike Willoughby, and I approve this message.
    2017 Ram 3500 CTD (aka FRAM)
    2019 Grand Design Reflection 367BHS

  7. #17
    Site Sponsor Jerryr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walaby View Post
    The point is, these are two different things. J2807 has nothing to do with calculating payload. In your example above, if your trucks payload is 3000 and you have passengers that weigh 500 lbs, your remaining payload is 2500, not 2800. The 300 lbs they are testing with comes off the payload of the vehicle.

    In essence the testing assumes a passenger weight of 300lbs, which absolutely comes off the payload. It is not "included" in the payload calculation.

    Mike
    Mike,

    You did state "So if your passengers weigh 500 lbs, then your payload drops to 2800"

    Payload does not drop with fatter passengers. Available payload does.

    Payload is consistent. Payload = GVWR - Truck weight with full fuel.

    Using just J2807 to confirm that a truck will safely and legally tow a 5th wheel at J2807 Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight rating is bad advice. Capability will be reduced based on trim series, option content and payload.

    From Ford Trailer Towing Guide:
    Make sure vehicle payload (reduce by option weight) will accommodate trailer tongue (trailer king pin for 5th-wheel towing) load weight and weight of passengers and cargo added to towing vehicle. Addition of trailer tongue (trailer king pin for 5th-wheel towing) load weight and weight of passengers and cargo must not cause vehicle weights to exceed rear GAWR or GVWR. These ratings can be found on the vehicle Safety Compliance Certification Label.

    So you must check to make sure you don't exceed:
    • rear GAWR
    • GVWR
    • PAYLOAD is ample to accommodate trailer king pin for 5th-wheel towing load weight and weight of passengers and cargo added to towing vehicle



    You must be below EACH of these weights, not just J2807 Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight rating

    In almost every case the first weight limit you will exceed towing a 5th wheel is PAYLOAD! When I was buying a truck I knew I needed at least 3,400 lbs PAYLOAD to tow my 337RLS since that was the total weight of Pin, driver, passenger, dog, hitch, cooler etc. I'm right at Payload limits but still 2,000 under J2807 Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight rating and WELL under rear GAWR and GVWR.
    Last edited by Jerryr; 01-10-2020 at 11:15 AM.
    Jerry & Linda
    Emma & Abby our Mini Golden Doodles & JR our Amazon Parrot
    2017 Reflection 337RLS, Build Date 01/2017, Titan Disk Brakes, Goodyear G614s 235/85/16 G Rated tires
    2022 F-450 King Ranch Ultimate, 4,868 lb Payload, Bedrug Bedliner, Andersen Ultimate II Aluminum 5th wheel hitch
    http://visitedstatesmap.com/image/FLGANCSCsm.jpg

  8. #18
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    I was quoting BeerBrewer.

    I said 2800 is wrong.. it is 2500 remaining.

    Payload is payload. Payload value (from sticker), minus cargo (to include ALL passengers), = remaining payload.

    Mike
    Im Mike Willoughby, and I approve this message.
    2017 Ram 3500 CTD (aka FRAM)
    2019 Grand Design Reflection 367BHS

  9. #19
    Site Sponsor Jerryr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walaby View Post
    I was quoting BeerBrewer.

    I said 2800 is wrong.. it is 2500 remaining.

    Payload is payload. Payload value (from sticker), minus cargo (to include ALL passengers), = remaining payload.

    Mike

    Oops,

    Mike. Sorry. I picked the wrong posting to quote. You got it right, BeerBrewer is the one who posted it wrong.
    Jerry & Linda
    Emma & Abby our Mini Golden Doodles & JR our Amazon Parrot
    2017 Reflection 337RLS, Build Date 01/2017, Titan Disk Brakes, Goodyear G614s 235/85/16 G Rated tires
    2022 F-450 King Ranch Ultimate, 4,868 lb Payload, Bedrug Bedliner, Andersen Ultimate II Aluminum 5th wheel hitch
    http://visitedstatesmap.com/image/FLGANCSCsm.jpg

  10. #20
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    The simple answer is to just look at your door sticker. That door sticker states the available payload for your specifically built truck. You need to fit people, fuel, stuff in truck/bed, accessories, hitch and pin weight into that number.
    2022 Momentum 351M-R
    2019 Ford F450 Platinum CC 6.7L Powerstroke FX4; Truck Covers USA American Work Tonneau; B&W 25K hitch; Airlift 5000 Ultimate+ w/WirelessAir; ZRoadZ back-up lamps
    Gone: 2018 Reflection 28BH; 2017 Ford F350 Platinum CCSB 6.7L Powerstroke FX4; 2015 GMC Denali 2500HD CCSB Dmax
    Gone but still in the family: 2004.5 Chev 2500HD CCSB LTZ Dmax

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