New here and looking at the 381M

[backtrack2015]

You have a good attitude and approach. I’m curious what the rear axle GAWR is for your truck and if you have any idea how much the rear axle weight would be with the truck empty? Sounds like you have it on order so the later number is probably not something you have at present.

[FirstAscent]

You have a good attitude and approach. I’m curious what the rear axle GAWR is for your truck and if you have any idea how much the rear axle weight would be with the truck empty? Sounds like you have it on order so the later number is probably not something you have at present.

These are the numbers from the guys truck who has the 351M, his truck is very similar to mine (same year, slightly different trim but still basically fully loaded options wise).

RGAWR - 7250

He went to a CAT scale last week with a full tank of gas and about 350lb full of passengers, these are the numbers from the scale (truck only, no trailer):

Front 5120, rear 3560. 8680 total

[backtrack2015]

Thanks, that is great information! Looks like your friend still had 3690# left on the rear axle. That’ll obviously be another number for you to watch with your truck as the vast majority of the hitch and pin-weight will be on the rear axle.

[xrated]

FirstAscent.......I'm going to make a suggestion here, simply get the empty trailer hitch/pin weight out of your mind. There are usually only two times that the empty pin weight will ever be at that weight number........1st....the day you buy the trailer and bring it home. 2nd....the day you trade the trailer in for a different one. Empty trailer pin weight is pretty much a useless number as no one goes camping with an empty trailer. The de facto standard is widely used by many folks for 5th wheel camping trailers, and that is to use the GVWR of the trailer multiplied by 20% to get a close estimate for pin weight. And yes, many times a trailer is NOT loaded all the way to the GVWR, but using THAT number for your calculations on matching a truck/trailer combo is what I would call a "worst case scenario". In effect, you have sized the truck large enough (payload wise) that even if you load the trailer to the maximum weight that it should ever be (the GVWR), you are still assured that you will not overload the truck and go over the payload rating of the truck. And remember, when the truck is loaded to the point that it is over payload, it is automatically over the GVWR of the truck.

[FirstAscent]

FirstAscent.......I'm going to make a suggestion here, simply get the empty trailer hitch/pin weight out of your mind. There are usually only two times that the empty pin weight will ever be at that weight number........1st....the day you buy the trailer and bring it home. 2nd....the day you trade the trailer in for a different one. Empty trailer pin weight is pretty much a useless number as no one goes camping with an empty trailer. The de facto standard is widely used by many folks for 5th wheel camping trailers, and that is to use the GVWR of the trailer multiplied by 20% to get a close estimate for pin weight. And yes, many times a trailer is NOT loaded all the way to the GVWR, but using THAT number for your calculations on matching a truck/trailer combo is what I would call a "worst case scenario". In effect, you have sized the truck large enough (payload wise) that even if you load the trailer to the maximum weight that it should ever be (the GVWR), you are still assured that you will not overload the truck and go over the payload rating of the truck. And remember, when the truck is loaded to the point that it is over payload, it is automatically over the GVWR of the truck.

Thank you! Yeah I keep thinking about it opposite of that but that simply makes more sense to start with max capacity and go from there. If I were to think of it like that, that would put me over my trucks limits. Which is unfortunate because the 381M literally checks all the boxes for me on features and size (mainly garage). However, I'd rather "settle" on the toy hauler than settle on the truck. A dually just isn't for me at this time, I know I'd regret it.

and Thank you all for bearing with my lack of knowledge on toy haulers and not treating me like a sales person saying "oh yeah you can pull anything with a 1-ton" haha. Luckily I know that's not true anyway

It's sounding more and more I may have to "step down" to the 349M. Going by your logic above, GVWR is 17000, 20% of that would be 3400.

[LV Naturist]

Just to chime in here, a while back I too was concerned about my pin weight. Not because it was too heavy, but because I thought it might be too light. The numbers below are actual weights from the Cat Scale. We had our normal load for a 4 day camping trip which included full water, 30 gallons of fuel in the tanks (15 for the genny and 15 for the toys), and both quads in the garage. A caveat is we do travel relatively light in that although we do have a well stocked kitchen and enough clothes and stuff for the trip, we are not pack-rats by any stretch of the imagination. This is for the truck and trailer in my signature. With toy haulers, any weight behind the axles does reduce the pin weight. The fresh water tanks (2) are over the axles. The rear black/grey tank is behind the axles, and the forward black and the kitchen/shower grey is just forward of the axles.

Truck Unhooked:
FA = 4820
RA = 3760
GW = 8,580

Truck Hooked:
FA = 4860
RA = 6840
Trailer Axle = 15,780
GCW = 27,480
PIN = 3,120
Pin % = 16.5%

John

[FirstAscent]

Just to chime in here, a while back I too was concerned about my pin weight. Not because it was too heavy, but because I thought it might be too light. The numbers below are actual weights from the Cat Scale. We had our normal load for a 4 day camping trip which included full water, 30 gallons of fuel in the tanks (15 for the genny and 15 for the toys), and both quads in the garage. A caveat is we do travel relatively light in that although we do have a well stocked kitchen and enough clothes and stuff for the trip, we are not pack-rats by any stretch of the imagination. This is for the truck and trailer in my signature. With toy haulers, any weight behind the axles does reduce the pin weight. The fresh water tanks (2) are over the axles. The rear black/grey tank is behind the axles, and the forward black and the kitchen/shower grey is just forward of the axles.

Truck Unhooked:
FA = 4820
RA = 3760
GW = 8,580

Truck Hooked:
FA = 4860
RA = 6840
Trailer Axle = 15,780
GCW = 27,480
PIN = 3,120
Pin % = 16.5%

John

Great info here, John! Thanks for posting up your actual numbers. Definitely helps to see some real world numbers on the same trailer. I was guessing the fresh/grey/black tanks were all forward of the axles but apparently not. With the toys loaded and a lot of that water weight over the axles it definitely makes sense on the lower pin weight.

So you’re 381 loaded up is about 19000. Yours two quads combined are close to the weight the side by side (Can-Am Maverick X3) but the X3 would still be an additional 300 lbs.

I imagine with the DRW you have more stability anyway but how does it feel towing it?

And at what point is pin % simply too low?

Also, do you have the double pane windows or just standard single? Any additional batteries or solar equipment etc either?

[xrated]

Thank you! Yeah I keep thinking about it opposite of that but that simply makes more sense to start with max capacity and go from there. If I were to think of it like that, that would put me over my trucks limits. Which is unfortunate because the 381M literally checks all the boxes for me on features and size (mainly garage). However, I'd rather "settle" on the toy hauler than settle on the truck. A dually just isn't for me at this time, I know I'd regret it.

and Thank you all for bearing with my lack of knowledge on toy haulers and not treating me like a sales person saying "oh yeah you can pull anything with a 1-ton" haha. Luckily I know that's not true anyway

It's sounding more and more I may have to "step down" to the 349M. Going by your logic above, GVWR is 17000, 20% of that would be 3400.

First Ascent.......you're welcome. Every single one of us here was a total newbie at this at some point in time, so most of us enjoy helping others that are new and or inexperienced towing. I take it kind of personal, as I was one of those guys that didn't know anything (well, very little) about towing dynamics and I bought a truck, then a trailer and I ended up not having enough truck for the trailer. I knew, after spending hours and hours and hours asking questions and reading as much as I could, that I needed a bigger truck. I had a 3/4T truck and a 1 Ton would have done the job nicely, with plenty of room to spare. I also knew that within a couple of years, I would be looking for a much larger Toy Hauler than the one I owned at the time. So I sat down and did the numbers and the truck I would eventually need would have to be a Dually in order to have enough available payload for the trailer I wanted. I ended up buying a F350 Diesel Dually, which was complete overkill for my trailer at the time. About 1 1/2 years later, I purchased the Toy Hauler that I have now, the Momentum 394M which has about 15,400 lbs of empty weight and 20,000 lbs fully loaded. And the great news was, I didn't NEED to change truck's again. So, having been through it myself, because I didn't know any better at the time, I try really hard to help anyone that has questions about towing and truck/trailer combinations and whether or not they are sized properly. I guess you could say that I'm trying to pay it forward, since so many people helped me when I was trying to learn.

[backtrack2015]

These toy-haulers are tricky as the pin-weight can change quite a bit depending on the toys. I couldn't help myself so I just did some quick estimates based on the 381M floor-plan drawing, photos, and advertised length. It looks to me like the center of the garage is located roughly 7.9-feet behind the center axle. I think the pin is roughly 27.5-ft in front of the center axle. If you put the center-of-mass for your garage toys at the center of the garage, it seems each 100-lbs of toys would reduce the pin-weight by about 28.5-lbs. Obviously the worst-case for the pin is when the toys are left at home.

[LV Naturist]

Great info here, John! Thanks for posting up your actual numbers. Definitely helps to see some real world numbers on the same trailer. I was guessing the fresh/grey/black tanks were all forward of the axles but apparently not. With the toys loaded and a lot of that water weight over the axles it definitely makes sense on the lower pin weight.

So you’re 381 loaded up is about 19000. Yours two quads combined are close to the weight the side by side (Can-Am Maverick X3) but the X3 would still be an additional 300 lbs.

I imagine with the DRW you have more stability anyway but how does it feel towing it?

And at what point is pin % simply too low?

Also, do you have the double pane windows or just standard single? Any additional batteries or solar equipment etc either?

My 2 quads weigh 1,500 lbs combined, (700 + 800 lbs), and yes we do have the dual pane windows. 15% would be the absolute minimum pin weight, with closer to 20% being optimal. Having said that, the trailer is very stable even at 16.5% (rounded). I have never felt the tail trying to wag the dog even on rough roads or moderate cross winds. I'll add that while the dually does add stability, at my pin weight it does not feel like the trailer is somewhat unstable and the dually is compensating, if that makes sense. IMHO, any three axle 5'er is definitely in dually territory regardless of how the numbers pan out because of the overall weight and length.

John

John