New here and looking at the 381M

[LV Naturist]

These toy-haulers are tricky as the pin-weight can change quite a bit depending on the toys. I couldn't help myself so I just did some quick estimates based on the 381M floor-plan drawing, photos, and advertised length. It looks to me like the center of the garage is located roughly 7.9-feet behind the center axle. I think the pin is roughly 27.5-ft in front of the center axle. If you put the center-of-mass for your garage toys at the center of the garage, it seems each 100-lbs of toys would reduce the pin-weight by about 28.5-lbs. Obviously the worst-case for the pin is when the toys are left at home.

Now you have me curious! I'll have to measure mine and get back to you...

[FirstAscent]

First Ascent.......you're welcome. Every single one of us here was a total newbie at this at some point in time, so most of us enjoy helping others that are new and or inexperienced towing.

Oh wow yeah you definitely went through it all but learned a lot along the way, I appreciate you passing any knowledge you have as well as lessons learned along! I’m learning a lot but definitely still have questions. I will always question if I don’t understand, and then make my decision after I feel comfortable with the facts I have.

These toy-haulers are tricky as the pin-weight can change quite a bit depending on the toys. I couldn't help myself so I just did some quick estimates based on the 381M floor-plan drawing, photos, and advertised length. It looks to me like the center of the garage is located roughly 7.9-feet behind the center axle. I think the pin is roughly 27.5-ft in front of the center axle. If you put the center-of-mass for your garage toys at the center of the garage, it seems each 100-lbs of toys would reduce the pin-weight by about 28.5-lbs. Obviously the worst-case for the pin is when the toys are left at home.

Thanks for putting some rough numbers together, I’m curious to how that pans out to real world if John gets a chance to measure.

My 2 quads weigh 1,500 lbs combined, (700 + 800 lbs), and yes we do have the dual pane windows. 15% would be the absolute minimum pin weight, with closer to 20% being optimal. Having said that, the trailer is very stable even at 16.5% (rounded). I have never felt the tail trying to wag the dog even on rough roads or moderate cross winds. I'll add that while the dually does add stability, at my pin weight it does not feel like the trailer is somewhat unstable and the dually is compensating, if that makes sense. IMHO, any three axle 5'er is definitely in dually territory regardless of how the numbers pan out because of the overall weight and length.

John

John

Thanks again John. I definitely don’t disagree that a dually is a better choice, better to have plenty of room to spare than to be at the limits. but this now makes me question (more out of curiosity) the numbers provided by the factory on trucks.

Hypothetical scenario:
My truck for example has a max 5th towing capacity of 21200. For arguments sake, are there any unwritten rules that you shouldn’t tow to your vehicles max capacity. Assuming all other numbers, GVWR/payload etc are not over as well. And not even for my specific truck, but just in general for any truck and whatever number it has posted for it’s max capacities.

And not only from a perspective of the trucks physical capability, but from a safety standpoint as well.


Also, you have all, and others as well, mentioned triple axles are dually territory. Makes sense because the extra axle would typically mean higher weight capacities. But there are tandem axles right up there as well +/- 5ft in length and + 1000lbs dry weight. But maybe the quick answer to that is that an SRW isn’t fit for the larger tandem axles too?

I’m learning a TON here!!

[xrated]

Oh wow yeah you definitely went through it all but learned a lot along the way, I appreciate you passing any knowledge you have as well as lessons learned along! I’m learning a lot but definitely still have questions. I will always question if I don’t understand, and then make my decision after I feel comfortable with the facts I have.



Thanks for putting some rough numbers together, I’m curious to how that pans out to real world if John gets a chance to measure.



Thanks again John. I definitely don’t disagree that a dually is a better choice, better to have plenty of room to spare than to be at the limits. but this now makes me question (more out of curiosity) the numbers provided by the factory on trucks.

Hypothetical scenario:
My truck for example has a max 5th towing capacity of 21200. For arguments sake, are there any unwritten rules that you shouldn’t tow to your vehicles max capacity. Assuming all other numbers, GVWR/payload etc are not over as well. And not even for my specific truck, but just in general for any truck and whatever number it has posted for it’s max capacities.

And not only from a perspective of the trucks physical capability, but from a safety standpoint as well.


Also, you have all, and others as well, mentioned triple axles are dually territory. Makes sense because the extra axle would typically mean higher weight capacities. But there are tandem axles right up there as well +/- 5ft in length and + 1000lbs dry weight. But maybe the quick answer to that is that an SRW isn’t fit for the larger tandem axles too?

I’m learning a TON here!!

Towing the right trailer at max towing capacity/rating is OK, as long as NONE of the other ratings are exceeded.....RAWR, FAWR, Payload, Tire Load Capacity, GVWR, etc. Remember me talking about running out of payload capacity before you reach max towing capacity? And remember me stating that applied many times to 5th Wheel CAMPING trailers. The reason that I specified CAMPING trailers is that it is a different ballgame when towing a flatbed/utility type trailer. Let's imagine a trailer like that and the total weight of the trailer AND whatever is loaded onto it weighs 21,000 lbs. With a flatbed, you have options as far as where you place the load on the trailer. Load it as far forward as it will go and you have almost certainly gone over the payload capacity of the tow truck. Put the load dead center over the axles and you have less pin weight on the truck. Move the load to the rear as far as possible you have even less pin weight on the truck. So, it's very possible to have a flatbed/utility type trailer and load and it be at the Max Towing capacity for your truck, but NOT have applied so much pin weight to have overloaded your truck in any of the weight capacities.

With 5ver camping trailers, you really don't have a lot of flexibility (you do to some extent) where you put all of the cargo in the trailer. The fresh water tank is located wherever it is, the forward storage compartment is where it is, and so on....so basically, you load it in the storage areas that the manufacturer of the trailer placed them.

Then, we have Toy Haulers. They are normally heavier than "normal" in the front (more pin weight) when they are not carrying motorcycles, side by sides, golf carts, whatever toy(s) you put back there. Once they are loaded with a couple of toys or say a couple thousand pounds, the pin weight on the trailer goes down. Toy Haulers are wonderful trailers and extremely popular, as they should be. You have a way to bring your toys AND a place to sleep, cook, bath, and watch TV.....all while being comfortable just like you were home. The caveat with them though, is the varying pin weight that it puts on the tow vehicle. You don't so much weight in the back that is brings your pin weight % down below about 20%, but if you aren't loading them up with toys, the pin weight is normally higher than a similar camping trailer that isn't a Toy Hauler. My previous Toy Hauler (2 motorcycles, paddock stands, toolbox, spare tires and wheels, etc, had enough weight back there that my tongue weight dropped slightly below 10% (it was a tow behind, not a 5ver) and cause some serious sway issues. I ended up actually adding weight to the front of the trailer.....sandbags, a barbell 35 lb plate, two 6 volt batteries, and still had to travel with about 50 gallons of water in the fresh tank to help with the front weight of the trailer. I finally got it all figured out and ended up with just under 12% for my tongue weight and the sway issue went away.

[backtrack2015]

This is likely old news, but I just spotted it while getting my daily dose of Car & Driver.

Article on how tow ratings are determined, also video by Engineering Explained

It looks like TFL Truck probably has a good video on this too. In any case, if you haven't seen it, this is a window into how those tow ratings are determined. The testing shown was with a heavy gooseneck trailer with a low CG. I don't know if fifth-wheel testing is done separately with a higher-CG rig or not. Did you know your parking-brake must hold the whole rig (at GCVWR) in place on a 12% grade? Impressive!

[FirstAscent]

Thanks for the links, I hadn’t seen those before but found it very interesting to watch!

[sxmom125]

We have a 2019 349m...,started out with a 2012 gmc srw dura max... and coming down a winding road in AZ we could feel the truck being pushed sideways.. promptly bought a 2019 GMC duramax dually... no issues now. Happy camping.

[tgoranson]

Hey everyone,

Just stumbled across this forum in my search for info on GD Toy Haulers, specifically the Momentum 381M.

Lots more to research but hoping I’ll be able to soon say I’ve ordered one! Looking forward to getting to know everyone further!

Its a great choice, we love ours. We have 2020 381M and at first I pulled with a 2015 F350 SRW that had 37's and a 6 inch lift. I was a little nose high but also realized the tires were too soft in the winds and too much body rock to feel comfortable on long hauls. We now have a 2019 F450 DRW on 35's and I love how it pulls. We also use the Anderson Ultimate Hitch and I pull 100% level now. The triple axle and tire drag has never been a problem. I rarely have to make such tight corners if you are a great planner. The 15ft garage was the selling point for me. We have a Can Am X3 XRS and I love the extra 4ft of garage space for additional storage. You'll be very happy with the 381M. Welcome to the GD family, there are so many great resources here to help you, I learn more and more every post.

[LV Naturist]

These toy-haulers are tricky as the pin-weight can change quite a bit depending on the toys. I couldn't help myself so I just did some quick estimates based on the 381M floor-plan drawing, photos, and advertised length. It looks to me like the center of the garage is located roughly 7.9-feet behind the center axle. I think the pin is roughly 27.5-ft in front of the center axle. If you put the center-of-mass for your garage toys at the center of the garage, it seems each 100-lbs of toys would reduce the pin-weight by about 28.5-lbs. Obviously the worst-case for the pin is when the toys are left at home.

Thanks for putting some rough numbers together, I’m curious to how that pans out to real world if John gets a chance to measure.

I did measure... Backtracks numbers are spot on! Good guesstimate.

John

[tgoranson]

I’m not and expert on numbers but I can alway say with confidence that I feel it pulls better if I back my machine into the garage and place more motor weight closer to the axles. Usually More noticeable when pulling home empty after draining the tanks.

[acmans]

Hello all. I am also new to 5th wheels with limited experience pulling smaller travel trailers.
I feel like I have made a terrible decision and was completely sold by the manufacturer rep and sales rep. If only i read this thread before my purchase and spent more time doing my homework. I ordered the new 381m (being built currently) and I also recently purchased the 2020 GMC Denali HD 3500 SRW Diesel. I even used the myGMC app that comes with a load calculator which i plugged in my truck’s numbers and what I “thought” i would be at weight wise ~1800 - 1850. I too picked the 381m because it checked all the boxes but more for the space and patio area not so much for toys. That being said, this thread has been very insightful however I would love to hear some recommendations on how to deal with my situation as what Im hearing is the 381m is too much for my truck.

I dont yet have the 381m so i dont have numbers on it, but here are my actual numbers for my 3500. Please, shoot to me straight , how screwed am I? What should i do?

GVWR: 12250 lbs
GCWR: 29700 lbs
RGAWR: 7250 lbs
Curb Weight: 3918 lbs
Max Payload: 3614 lbs
GAWR FRT: 6000 lbs
GAWR RR: 7250 lbs
Conventional TWR: 20000 lbs
Max Toungue Weight: 2000 lbs
Gooseneck/5th TWR: 21100 lbs
Max Toungue Weight: 3165

In the GMC app, i calculated 650 lbs of passenger weight (which if my wife drove my kids in a separate vehicle would reduce this). 175 lbs for the B&W companion puck hitch. 75 additional lbs for miscellaneous cargo in the cab. I calculated about 3300 lbs of cargo in the trailer, although, again, not sure how accurate that is if we’re really just loading fluids, kitchen items, bedding etc... and no toys.
According to the calculator, that puts right at or just under the 29700 GCWR which it terms as “safe”.

Hoping those with experience can provide some good advice. And yes, i did read the whole thread and while I do understand what has already been recommended to the Original poster, I’m not hoping the recommendation changes. Im looking for someone to shoot it straight but also leaning on those with the experience to give any suggestions on “if”/“how” i can make this work, or if im going to have to find a way to break/amend/modify my contract or find a way to get into a dually (highly likely not an option, but im willing to explore it).

Thank you in advance for any and all who take the time, and thanks to all of you who have already gave great insights.

Kind Regards,
A