New to RV

[Wicked ace]

Sorry to hijack this thread but does anybody have any verifiable proof that this is happening?

To answer your question no, I don't have it at hand right now. However I have seen documents and reports that a few mid-west and western states do actively inspect RVs and tow vehicles for weight compliance. In one southern state I went by a weigh station not thinking anything about it until a state trooper pulled me over and had me go back and get weighed. Other than weighing and registration they didn't look concerned or any further. Maybe somebody was in a bad mood that day?
Also What's not to say an accident investigation, especially if there are dire consequences, won't produce these facts. It seems like I'm playing devil's advocate but the cost of compliance, especially if you think ahead is low compared to the cost if you do get in a bind.

[BeerBrewer]

Sorry to hijack this thread but does anybody have any verifiable proof that this is happening?

Bungy you raised a very relevant and valid point, because I too have wondered the same thing. I have to ask what do mean by "verifiable proof"?

Now if you consider "verifiable proof" to mean the actual laws and regulations that cover towing? Unfortunately most states have their own laws state on towing, so its hard to find them. I have seen tables that summarize some the towing rules and regulations, but they never go into very much detail. I've even searched my own states (NY) web site looking for the actual rules and all I can say is they are very fragmented across hundreds, even thousands of pages. Even though the regulations and laws are hard to find we somehow are supposed to abide by them. Don't they always say "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"?

Now if you consider "verifiable proof" the results of civil law suits, the internet is loaded with information. I did a quick search and came up with a few links below. You can rest assured that the litigation attorneys that deal automobile accidents are going to try every single angle when it comes to towing accidents. You can also rest assured that the Attorney is well versed in the motor vehicle laws in his or her state and they will most certainly use them against you when they want to.

https://www.quora.com/If-you-exceed-...specifications
https://www.personalinjuryclaimsblaw...ity-for-rvers/
http://wolflawnj.com/2013/04/towing-...rweight-loads/

Lastly, I don't want to get into a debate on the legality of towing over while weight or exceeding the manufactures specs of the tow vehicle, because I'm not a Lawyer, I'm only a Civil Engineer. I only posted those links as proof that the legal community is well aware of the issue. Some feel it's a must to stay within specs, some don't. I guess its a personal decision that we all will have to live with. When we first started getting into RVing I sadly discovered (with the help of some kind folks on this forum) that my old pick-up wasn't safely up to the task. So we followed their advice and we made sure our new truck could safely pull the trailer that we selected and I sleep soundly at night.

Bob

[glmflyer]

Thanks all for your replies. Pay load is only 2161 pounds total on my truck. I see no options in the 5th wheel TH series that I can utilize my existing truck. I am looking at the 150 1/2 series and will just have to leave the bike behind.

[Bungy]

Bungy you raised a very relevant and valid point, because I too have wondered the same thing. I have to ask what do mean by "verifiable proof"?

Now if you consider "verifiable proof" to mean the actual laws and regulations that cover towing? Unfortunately most states have their own laws state on towing, so its hard to find them. I have seen tables that summarize some the towing rules and regulations, but they never go into very much detail. I've even searched my own states (NY) web site looking for the actual rules and all I can say is they are very fragmented across hundreds, even thousands of pages. Even though the regulations and laws are hard to find we somehow are supposed to abide by them. Don't they always say "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"?

Now if you consider "verifiable proof" the results of civil law suits, the internet is loaded with information. I did a quick search and came up with a few links below. You can rest assured that the litigation attorneys that deal automobile accidents are going to try every single angle when it comes to towing accidents. You can also rest assured that the Attorney is well versed in the motor vehicle laws in his or her state and they will most certainly use them against you when they want to.

https://www.quora.com/If-you-exceed-...specifications
https://www.personalinjuryclaimsblaw...ity-for-rvers/
http://wolflawnj.com/2013/04/towing-...rweight-loads/

Lastly, I don't want to get into a debate on the legality of towing over while weight or exceeding the manufactures specs of the tow vehicle, because I'm not a Lawyer, I'm only a Civil Engineer. I only posted those links as proof that the legal community is well aware of the issue. Some feel it's a must to stay within specs, some don't. I guess its a personal decision that we all will have to live with. When we first started getting into RVing I sadly discovered (with the help of some kind folks on this forum) that my old pick-up wasn't safely up to the task. So we followed their advice and we made sure our new truck could safely pull the trailer that we selected and I sleep soundly at night.

Bob

The links you provided are opinions of various individuals, not proof. Proof would be a guilty verdict in an actual legal case. When I got into RVing 40 years ago there were no “kind folks” to consult so I learned “on the job”. In all that time I have not heard of anyone being convicted of overloading a tow vehicle.

[Wicked ace]

The links you provided are opinions of various individuals, not proof. Proof would be a guilty verdict in an actual legal case. When I got into RVing 40 years ago there were no “kind folks” to consult so I learned “on the job”. In all that time I have not heard of anyone being convicted of overloading a tow vehicle.

This begs the question....have you done any in depth searching for what you ask others to provide?

[Overtaxed]

The links you provided are opinions of various individuals, not proof. Proof would be a guilty verdict in an actual legal case. When I got into RVing 40 years ago there were no “kind folks” to consult so I learned “on the job”. In all that time I have not heard of anyone being convicted of overloading a tow vehicle.

Convicted of what?

I'm a firm believer that this is more an imagined issue than a real one. First off, let's think about the situation here, just because one party is negligent in an accident doesn't mean "automatic win" for the other. First thing that has to happen, you need to be "at fault". Just having something "wrong" with your vehicle, overweight, broken windshield, head light out, tinted windows, etc.. That doesn't mean your at fault. If your car has no head lights at all (but taillights) and you get rear ended sitting at a stop sign, guess what? First off, it's unlikely anyone is even going to look at your headlights, and, if they do, it's even less likely they are going to be able to say that "caused" the accident and not the a**hole who was driving drunk and hit your rear end. As was stated, there are SO many laws about towing, driving, rules, regulations; it's near impossible to make it to the end of your street without breaking at least a couple of them. Does that mean you're automatically "at fault" for anything that happens? No, of course, not, the courts are more sensible than that.

Now, if your truck loses a rear tire and causes a wreck, yeah, your gonna be at fault. Just like you would be if you were towing with a semi, lost a few tires at once and then lost control. That's not a criminal case though, it's a a case between two people for money. But guess what? Your insurance company will cover it, up to the limits of your liability, just like they would cover any other dumb-a** thing you might do with your vehicle. They cover you for driving drunk, they cover you for TXTing and driving, blowing stop signs and all other manner of dumb s**t. That's what insurance is for, if all they had to do was prove "you did something wrong" well, guess what? None of us need collision coverage at all anymore, because 99% of the time it's used (and not the other driver's liability) is because you did something wrong; anywhere between dumb crap and outright felony level wrong, it's covered.

Could you get a ticket? Yes, you could, especially if you're exceeding your axle weight/tire weight ratings. From what I understand, GVWR isn't enforced the same way, but I think that also varies from state to state. Is it likely you get a ticket? No, it's not, at least not IMHO. Browse boards like this, there are 100's/1000's/10,000's of people there and almost 0 first hand accounts of getting pulled over towing an RV, having them pull out scales and then writing a ticket or forcing you to disconnect. That happens with some regularity to CDL/commercial drivers, but, it seems to almost never happen to RV's. Again, don't look for "friend of a friend" stories, look for "Overtaxed" saying "yeah, I got a ticket last year for 325 bucks after they pulled me over because they thought I was overweight, weighed me and then wrote me up". They may be out there, but they are exceedingly rare. Threads talking about the implications of towing over GVWR must outnumber threads about "My ticket for exceeding GVWR" 10,000 to 1.

The best thing to do, look at a truck big enough to tow what you want. Then upside that truck. You need a 250, get a 350. Need a 350, get a 450. Then you never need to think about it again. And it's nearly inarguable, DRW is safer and a nicer towing experience than SRW, if you're upsizing, that's the "major" change from 3/4 tons to everything else. A 350 and 250 are really almost exactly the same vehicle with different stickers on them, a 350 DRW or 450 is in a totally different towing class simply because of the increased number of tires on the road and the stability and weight carrying capacity that provides.

Also What's not to say an accident investigation, especially if there are dire consequences, won't produce these facts. It seems like I'm playing devil's advocate but the cost of compliance, especially if you think ahead is low compared to the cost if you do get in a bind.

If there's an accident, if there's an investigation and if being overweight had something to do with it, yeah, you could be looking at a significant liability claim. It's a low probability event; but this, IMHO, I do think that this has happened. Lose a rear tire on a SRW going downhill, lose control, hurt/kill someone. I'm sure that's happened and I'm equally sure that you're insurance company is going to be paying out in that case. But guess what? If you were towing with a semi, and had a trailer tire come apart and flip the trailer and kill someone, your STILl gonna be liable. Having the right tow vehicle doesn't insulate you from litigation, it insulates you from a VERY specific set of circumstances where a bigger truck would have been OK (one with DRW, for example) and the one you were towing with was not and someone gets hurt. I have NO doubt that this has happened, but, again, it's a real slim probability event.

Now, all that said, as I think I mentioned on here, I'm a member of the "2 truck" club. Yes, I just gave a bunch of reasons "not to worry about it", and I stand by them, getting sued/ticketed/pulled over really aren't pressing concerns for me because, I just don't see it as very likely. So, why did I take a 10K hit trading one brand new truck for another one? Because for that money, I could buy safety and comfort. Not "better insurability" not "insulation from cops" (I'm always doing something wrong, if they want to write a ticket, they will, and IMHO, the vast majority of us fall into that group the moment we leave our driveways). I could trade money for my own safety, and safety of those near me while driving. And that was a reasonable trade in my eyes. Had nothing to do with the "truck can't handle it" (it could, I towed it with the 250 about 600 miles). Nothing to do with "I'm afraid my insurance won't cover it". Nothing to do with "the law". It was simply a moral calculation for me, I could afford to make myself, my family, and those driving near us safer for what, to me, was a reasonable cost. And I'm glad I did it, the first pull with the 450 was about 800 miles through just AWFUL weather, I81, middle of the night, rain, sleet, snow, trucks ripping by, wind.. Yes, I'm confident I would have made it in the 250, but I was darn happy I had the 450 as the conditions deteriorated.

Long way of saying, don't fear the law, rules, regulations, weigh stations, insurance not paying, or any of the other "horror stories" you hear about towing overweight. The real thing to fear, IMHO, is that you are involved in an accident that could have been avoided if you had "more truck". That was what I put to bed with the 450, if, God forbid, something bad happens out there on the road, and myself, my family, my pets, or other drivers are hurt, I won't be the person thinking "man, if I'd had more truck, none of this would have happened". And, for me, personally, that was worth a few thousand dollars, that peace of mind. Other's have different experience towing (they are better at it than me), different tolerance for delays (they would have packed it in on 81 when it started pouring and visibility dropped to about 25'), different risk tolerance (they don't worry about it as much) and lots of other things that factor into their personal decisions. And they arrive at different choices, I see, on most highway trips, at least 1 250 class truck towing a triple axle toy hauler and have seen exactly 0 250's in a ditch with a triple axle toy hauler attached, so maybe they are right. I might have been seeing more risk than there was in the setup I had, it's obvious that people do it all the time without killing themselves/others on a regular basis. But I knew that I could get "better" without a huge investment of money, so I did. That was the right answer for me, perhaps not for you, and I don't intend to do that personal math for anyone else. But do it based on reality and likelihood of outcome. Chances your pushed though a weigh station and fined? IDK, but let's agree "REAL rare" is a reasonable approximation. Chances you'll be more in control of an RV with a bigger truck? 100%. Chances a DRW gives you redundancy in the case of rear tire failure? 100%. Chances that having the "right truck" will give you peace of mind, if, god forbid, something did happen? Much, much higher. And that's why I did it, not to get under some make believe sticker, and not to avoid a ticket, neither of those really factored into the decision.

[Wicked ace]

Convicted of what?

I'm a firm believer that this is more an imagined issue than a real one. First off, let's think about the situation here, just because one party is negligent in an accident doesn't mean "automatic win" for the other. First thing that has to happen, you need to be "at fault". Just having something "wrong" with your vehicle, overweight, broken windshield, head light out, tinted windows, etc.. That doesn't mean your at fault. If your car has no head lights at all (but taillights) and you get rear ended sitting at a stop sign, guess what? First off, it's unlikely anyone is even going to look at your headlights, and, if they do, it's even less likely they are going to be able to say that "caused" the accident and not the a**hole who was driving drunk and hit your rear end. As was stated, there are SO many laws about towing, driving, rules, regulations; it's near impossible to make it to the end of your street without breaking at least a couple of them. Does that mean you're automatically "at fault" for anything that happens? No, of course, not, the courts are more sensible than that.

Now, if your truck loses a rear tire and causes a wreck, yeah, your gonna be at fault. Just like you would be if you were towing with a semi, lost a few tires at once and then lost control. That's not a criminal case though, it's a a case between two people for money. But guess what? Your insurance company will cover it, up to the limits of your liability, just like they would cover any other dumb-a** thing you might do with your vehicle. They cover you for driving drunk, they cover you for TXTing and driving, blowing stop signs and all other manner of dumb s**t. That's what insurance is for, if all they had to do was prove "you did something wrong" well, guess what? None of us need collision coverage at all anymore, because 99% of the time it's used (and not the other driver's liability) is because you did something wrong; anywhere between dumb crap and outright felony level wrong, it's covered.

Could you get a ticket? Yes, you could, especially if you're exceeding your axle weight/tire weight ratings. From what I understand, GVWR isn't enforced the same way, but I think that also varies from state to state. Is it likely you get a ticket? No, it's not, at least not IMHO. Browse boards like this, there are 100's/1000's/10,000's of people there and almost 0 first hand accounts of getting pulled over towing an RV, having them pull out scales and then writing a ticket or forcing you to disconnect. That happens with some regularity to CDL/commercial drivers, but, it seems to almost never happen to RV's. Again, don't look for "friend of a friend" stories, look for "Overtaxed" saying "yeah, I got a ticket last year for 325 bucks after they pulled me over because they thought I was overweight, weighed me and then wrote me up". They may be out there, but they are exceedingly rare. Threads talking about the implications of towing over GVWR must outnumber threads about "My ticket for exceeding GVWR" 10,000 to 1.

The best thing to do, look at a truck big enough to tow what you want. Then upside that truck. You need a 250, get a 350. Need a 350, get a 450. Then you never need to think about it again. And it's nearly inarguable, DRW is safer and a nicer towing experience than SRW, if you're upsizing, that's the "major" change from 3/4 tons to everything else. A 350 and 250 are really almost exactly the same vehicle with different stickers on them, a 350 DRW or 450 is in a totally different towing class simply because of the increased number of tires on the road and the stability and weight carrying capacity that provides.



If there's an accident, if there's an investigation and if being overweight had something to do with it, yeah, you could be looking at a significant liability claim. It's a low probability event; but this, IMHO, I do think that this has happened. Lose a rear tire on a SRW going downhill, lose control, hurt/kill someone. I'm sure that's happened and I'm equally sure that you're insurance company is going to be paying out in that case. But guess what? If you were towing with a semi, and had a trailer tire come apart and flip the trailer and kill someone, your STILl gonna be liable. Having the right tow vehicle doesn't insulate you from litigation, it insulates you from a VERY specific set of circumstances where a bigger truck would have been OK (one with DRW, for example) and the one you were towing with was not and someone gets hurt. I have NO doubt that this has happened, but, again, it's a real slim probability event.

Now, all that said, as I think I mentioned on here, I'm a member of the "2 truck" club. Yes, I just gave a bunch of reasons "not to worry about it", and I stand by them, getting sued/ticketed/pulled over really aren't pressing concerns for me because, I just don't see it as very likely. So, why did I take a 10K hit trading one brand new truck for another one? Because for that money, I could buy safety and comfort. Not "better insurability" not "insulation from cops" (I'm always doing something wrong, if they want to write a ticket, they will, and IMHO, the vast majority of us fall into that group the moment we leave our driveways). I could trade money for my own safety, and safety of those near me while driving. And that was a reasonable trade in my eyes. Had nothing to do with the "truck can't handle it" (it could, I towed it with the 250 about 600 miles). Nothing to do with "I'm afraid my insurance won't cover it". Nothing to do with "the law". It was simply a moral calculation for me, I could afford to make myself, my family, and those driving near us safer for what, to me, was a reasonable cost. And I'm glad I did it, the first pull with the 450 was about 800 miles through just AWFUL weather, I81, middle of the night, rain, sleet, snow, trucks ripping by, wind.. Yes, I'm confident I would have made it in the 250, but I was darn happy I had the 450 as the conditions deteriorated.

Long way of saying, don't fear the law, rules, regulations, weigh stations, insurance not paying, or any of the other "horror stories" you hear about towing overweight. The real thing to fear, IMHO, is that you are involved in an accident that could have been avoided if you had "more truck". That was what I put to bed with the 450, if, God forbid, something bad happens out there on the road, and myself, my family, my pets, or other drivers are hurt, I won't be the person thinking "man, if I'd had more truck, none of this would have happened". And, for me, personally, that was worth a few thousand dollars, that peace of mind. Other's have different experience towing (they are better at it than me), different tolerance for delays (they would have packed it in on 81 when it started pouring and visibility dropped to about 25'), different risk tolerance (they don't worry about it as much) and lots of other things that factor into their personal decisions. And they arrive at different choices, I see, on most highway trips, at least 1 250 class truck towing a triple axle toy hauler and have seen exactly 0 250's in a ditch with a triple axle toy hauler attached, so maybe they are right. I might have been seeing more risk than there was in the setup I had, it's obvious that people do it all the time without killing themselves/others on a regular basis. But I knew that I could get "better" without a huge investment of money, so I did. That was the right answer for me, perhaps not for you, and I don't intend to do that personal math for anyone else. But do it based on reality and likelihood of outcome. Chances your pushed though a weigh station and fined? IDK, but let's agree "REAL rare" is a reasonable approximation. Chances you'll be more in control of an RV with a bigger truck? 100%. Chances a DRW gives you redundancy in the case of rear tire failure? 100%. Chances that having the "right truck" will give you peace of mind, if, god forbid, something did happen? Much, much higher. And that's why I did it, not to get under some make believe sticker, and not to avoid a ticket, neither of those really factored into the decision.

Nice rant

[Akfiredog377]

Sorry to hijack this thread but does anybody have any verifiable proof that this is happening?

It happens all the time. For minor accidents or claims insurance companies and for the most part LE wont look too much into it. For major accidents that involve serious injury or death(s) involved LE will look at EVERYTHING. They will pull data off your computer, take measurement's, pictures. You get the point. If they find you are overloaded they will look to see how that contributed to the events of the crash. I have worked in emergency services for 23 years and have seen it done. Again if you are overloaded and something bad happens they can file criminal charges on you. Then the lawyers will get involved and guess what. They can also get all the data from the crash and they will look to see if your overweight. Boom, here comes the lawsuit.

Most states that I'm aware of can have you pull over and check the weights if the trooper thinks you are overweight. If so they can and will fine you. If the weights are way over they will also have you contact a tow service to have your trailer moved to a yard because you will not be allowed to drive it overweight. The cost will fall upon you. Bottom line you need to ask yourself if its worth the risk.

[Overtaxed]

Boom, here comes the lawsuit.

A lawsuit for what? Or, put another way, would the lawsuit happen if you weren't overweight? Anyone can sue anyone for anything, are we talking about the state pressing criminal charges? If so, for what?

Here's what I think is happening. Your towing over weight. You try to come to a stop at the bottom of the hill, blow the light and hit someone; they are hurt. You get sued. People say "It's an overweight case". Well, in one respect, it is. But, guess what? If you were driving a semi pulling a single axle landscape trailer, your STILL GONNA GET SUED if you blow the light. Under or over weight, matters not. Someone gets hurt, property damaged, whatever, you're gonna get sued (or your insurance company is gonna settle). So what exactly is it that happens when you're overweight that's any different? Let's reverse it, say your sitting at the bottom of the hill, same spot, but you're comfortably stopped waiting for the light to change. Someone rear ends your trailer and is seriously injured. Your 5K over GVWR. Does that matter at all (I'm asking a question here, not making a statement)? If the weight has nothing to do with the "bad thing" that happened, I don't see how it comes up in court at all. If I'm going through a green light, and someone blows the red and hits me and they figure out my tail light is out, is that person suddenly no longer at fault? Of course not; one has nothing to do with the other.

Now, if you do get in an accident that's "weight related" (like losing a rear tire, losing control of the truck and hitting others, probably the easiest example), yeah, your at fault and you're going to pay. Just like you would pay if you were driving a dually and magically lost BOTH rear tires and caused an accident.

I guess it really depends on the state and the nature of the accident. Most serious accident scenes I've ever been at are abundantly clear, someone blew a light, lost control and ran off the road, left their lane, traveling the wrong way, etc. They take pictures, draw a diagram of what happened and close it up. I'm sure in some cases they do serious investigation, probably in fatalities where the cause isn't clear and they are trying to figure out who's liable/caused it, especially if booze/drugs are involved. But I really think a lot of people think police accident investigation is typically like an episode of CSI. I'm sure it is sometimes, but in my experience, it's much more like a few guys standing by the road talking to some other guys who say is saying "WTF happened here", measuring some brake marks with a ruler, drawing it up, taking some pictures and packing it up for the next one. No offense intended to any police, it's really just that most accidents don't require more than 10 seconds of looking at to see what happened/why.

Then the lawyers will get involved and guess what.

Have you ever seen a case where the blame shifted from one party to the "overweight" party on the basis of them being overweight? That's really what's at issue here, if I'm overweight and blow a stop sign, guess what? Lawyers are getting involved. If I'm underweight and blow the stop sign, same thing. And if I'm not hauling at all and blow the sign.. Yup, you guessed it, same deal.

I just see, and I think the law sees, being overweight as just any other form of negligence, driving distracted, talking on the phone, not taking care of your car and having a failure at speed that causes an accident. Yeah, all your fault, and, if that's the cause of the wreck, you're gonna get sued. But if you have 3 bald and one flat tire and someone rear ends you, it's not like you're suddenly at fault because your tires are bald.

The LAST thing I'm saying is "tow overweight". I did it a few times, and then I changed trucks. But not to avoid some hypothetical lawsuit that's unlikely to happen and, even if it does, I'm insured against. The real reason, IMHO, to not tow overweight is so that you, your family, and those around you are safer, not to avoid a ticket. Which is why I have little/no faith in the "go from a 250 to a 350SRW", all you're doing there is protecting yourself from that "slim chance" lawsuit. If you want to actually protect yourself from a much more likely bad situation, get a truck with more capability, go from a 150 to a 250, from a 250 to a dually. Paying to change stickers to be "legal" is just not something that makes any sense to me.

[Akfiredog377]

It may not make sense to you, however being overweight will cost you if a bad situation comes up. I have seen it happen. I hope nothing like this ever happens to you or anyone else.