New to RV

[Overtaxed]

[QUOTE=mixerman;294966]

I don't believe this for a second.

I don't really care whether you believe it or not. Just telling you what she said.

Well, I'd love to see the case law on it. I've looked, hard, and I don't think it's out there, or, if it is; it's not easy to find (which would indicate "not common" to me).

Also, there are 2 things at issue here. Will your insurance cover you if you plow into a school bus with a 50K trailer behind a Honda Accord is really a 2 part question. Will they cover the liability claim and will they cover the collision claim. Liability is the "big boy", that's where you hear people getting sued for millions, and, honestly, I don't see any leg for any insurance company to stand on for denying liability. That would be just like you plowing into a school bus drunk, and I don't see them denying that claim either. I mean, of course, they CAN fight anything. One of the things my father always said, everyone can sue anyone for anything. I could sue Mixerman for hurting my feelings as a liability claim. And my car could get stolen tomorrow and insurance refuse to pay because they think my username is stupid. They can even make me take them to court to pay, but, eventually, they'll have to pay. So, sure, they could deny your claim, and you could wind up in court. But unless it was ridiculous (towing a Raptor with a Ford Ranger), they could prove you intended to injure others/destroy your own property.. IDK, maybe it has happened, but in the list of crap to worry about, towing a "little over" the stickers on a truck is real low on my list.

I do not encourage people to tow over, but I don't think "fear of the man" is the best motivator; the real answer, it's just safer for you and everyone around you. "The man" is almost certainly not gonna get you no matter what you do, but you could very well wind up in a bad situation that a bigger truck could avoid and injure yourself/others. And that logic takes you where some members wind up, towing a 5er with a semi, and that's fine too. Others tow a Raptor 21K GVWR rig with a 250 and feel good about it. For me, it was DRW that made me "feel good" about it. Don't fear the law, fear the moral anguish you'll feel if something bad happens that you can avoid. Don't do it because you're afraid of some unlikely situation, do it makes you/others safer. That's all I mean when I talk about this, yes, perhaps there is some legal ramification of towing overweight (and over dark tint, and smoked out tail lights, too tall tires, and the 100's of other things that people do that make their vehicles less safe than the manufacturer intended or are specifically DON'T DO THIS in the manuals), but it feels like a ton of "FUD" (fear, uncertainty and doubt) to me, nobody seems to ever be able to produce cases, and while I'm sure they exist, that indicated their rarity. I could find you 100 DUIs in the past week searching public records, and also find you 100's of RV accident reports (some of which likely could have been avoided with "more truck").

[Brewhedd]

I don't believe this for a second. Someone show me something in an insurance policy that says "if you're doing someone illegal, you're not covered".

I'm not showing you but my policy states just that. Will your liability pay out for when you are towing overloaded and cause injury or death? I don't know nor do I plan to find out. Let's say your insurance pays a claim for towing overloaded and that action caused an accident, injury or death. What happens when you hit the limit and it's not enough. I don't get why anyone would want to take even a slight chance on losing everything they worked decades to accumulate.

[Overtaxed]

I'm not showing you but my policy states just that. Will your liability pay out for when you are towing overloaded and cause injury or death? I don't know nor do I plan to find out. Let's say your insurance pays a claim for towing overloaded and that action caused an accident, injury or death. What happens when you hit the limit and it's not enough. I don't get why anyone would want to take even a slight chance on losing everything they worked decades to accumulate.

I suggest a new insurance company (seriously, if doing something illegal isn't covered, liability insurance from that company is completely worthless to me. It's illegal to rear end someone, run a stop sign, drive off the road, drive too fast and hit someone and frankly, just about every other situation I can think of where I'd need my liability insurance it's because I've done something against the law and caused injury or damage to someone/thing else).

If you don't want to take a "slight chance", don't get behind the wheel. Me driving a 450 does NOT, in any way, insulate me from liability. I could still sideswipe someone, lose control of the vehicle, back into someone, drive to fast, run a stop light (all of which are illegal). There's always a chance you'll be at fault when you climb in a car to drive. The right thing to do isn't bury your head, it's to get good insurance (including an umbrella policy, which I have for liability, is cheap, and good protection from the "worst case" situation) and do everything you can to make sure you're not involved in an accident, and, if you are, make sure it's not your fault. Sometimes, even with the best intentions, you will fail on the last point and it will be your fault. And this is where we get into a gray area, I don't believe for a second that towing overweight means "automatically your fault" anymore than having a tail light out makes you automatically at fault if someone runs a stop sign and t-bones you. Now, if they rear end you? Now we're talking proximate cause. Just like a SRW truck losing a tire and hurting someone, it's pretty obvious that the weight of the trailer had something to do with the accident in that case. Or brakes failing heading downhill, same thing. And I do firmly believe a bigger truck helps in those situations, not to avoid liability, but to avoid the accident in the first place. That's really my point, you want to avoid the accident entirely, and there, unlike the "you won't be insured" discussion which, honestly, I think is 99% hogwash; when we're talking about avoiding an accident it's pretty clear that "bigger is better". Bigger brakes, more wheels/tires, more weight in the truck compared to the trailer. That's where a bigger truck has value to me personally, it's not to avoid some lawyer, if I blow a stop sign I'm getting sued no matter what I drive. But the value in a bigger/heavier truck in controlling/stopping a load, the value of 6 wheels in a blowout, the stability of a wider stance. Those are undeniable benefits to "bigger trucks". And that's where I think the focus should be, avoiding the accident, not making sure you're in the "legal right" if you have one (here's a clue, you're probably not, you/me/everyone, if you look hard enough, we're probably doing something wrong every time we drive).

Good article to leaf through for those interested:

https://www.insure.com/car-insurance...egal-acts.html

“If you torch your home, you’re intentionally committing a crime. With a DUI, you understand that it’s against the law to drive under the influence, but you don’t expect to get into an accident,” explains Penny Gusner, senior consumer analyst for Insure.com.

[Brewhedd]

I suggest a new insurance company (seriously, if doing something illegal isn't covered, liability insurance from that company is completely worthless to me. It's illegal to rear end someone, run a stop sign, drive off the road, drive too fast and hit someone and frankly, just about every other situation I can think of where I'd need my liability insurance it's because I've done something against the law and caused injury or damage to someone/thing else).

If you don't want to take a "slight chance", don't get behind the wheel.

I suggest you read your policy, if you think you are covered while driving drunk you may be mistaken. The discussion is about towing illegally. I won't take a chance, even a slight chance, on being sued because I was exceeding tow vehicle limits and caused an accident. That's why I have a truck that is capable of towing more than my trailer, plus it makes towing stress free. People that tow an RV beyond the limits of their tow vehicle are putting lives in danger. It's ridiculous to think it's ok but if you want to do it go right ahead.

[Overtaxed]

I suggest you read your policy, if you think you are covered while driving drunk you may be mistaken. The discussion is about towing illegally. I won't take a chance, even a slight chance, on being sued because I was exceeding tow vehicle limits and caused an accident. That's why I have a truck that is capable of towing more than my trailer, plus it makes towing stress free. People that tow an RV beyond the limits of their tow vehicle are putting lives in danger. It's ridiculous to think it's ok but if you want to do it go right ahead.

I don't think it's "OK". And I don't do it, I'm a member of the 2 truck club, traded a new 250 for a new 450 and ate that lovely first month depreciation. My point isn't that it's a good idea, nor that others should do it. It's that you shouldn't do it because, as you said, you're putting lives in danger, not because you're afraid of "the man" or some crazy combinations of events that could happen that would put you at fault in an accident where you wouldn't be if you weren't overweight. Do it because it's safer and better. Which is why I have no support at all for going from a 250 to 350 SRW, all you're buying there is "legality", you're buying stickers with higher numbers on them. A 250 with bags is probably better than a 350 without them (SRW). The discussion is SRW or DRW, and HD truck or 150 class. Going from a 150 to 250 is a lot more truck. From a SRW to DRW is a lot more truck. But upgrading from one SRW to another SRW just to get the sticker "right" is paying a lot of money and not really, IMHO, buying much insulation from anything. You get in an accident with a SRW 350 that's NOT overloaded (where a 250 would be) because you lost a rear wheel? Guess what, you're still going to get sued for the damages/pain/suffering/death that you caused. The way to prevent legal action is to prevent the accident, not to be in the "right truck".

If my policy didn't cover me drunk driving/running stop lights/speeding or any other stupid thing I might do on the road, I would drop that policy. Did you see the link I posted? While I suppose maybe there are some insurance companies out there that are writing out liability if the insured does "anything illegal", that would be a very odd policy. Liability is exactly FOR the situations where you did something wrong (which usually implies something illegal), if it's not insuring against that, it better be really, really inexpensive because I struggle to see how you would be liable and not be doing something illegal (following too close, running a stop light, crossing into the other lane, etc).

[Flip94ta]

This is what insurance will do if you are found negligent.

https://www.glamisdunes.com/invision...hicles-a-must/

[Overtaxed]

This is what insurance will do if you are found negligent.

https://www.glamisdunes.com/invision...hicles-a-must/

That's an awful story, but, what did insurance do? From the article:

He is awaiting trial for manslaughter, lost a civil suit for 1.2 million dollars, of which he was able to get 300,000 dollars from his insurances company

They paid. Now, in this case, he didn't have enough liability insurance, which, of course, is a real discussion that everyone needs to have for themselves, getting higher liability limits/umbrella policies.

The highway patrol cited him for hauling the trailer with a tow vehicle that was not rated for the weights of the trailer even though he was not too loaded up.

This is the only thing (legally speaking) that likely would have been avoided by the right truck. But even if he had a semi, if the same situation happened and he lost control of the trailer/killed someone, he's going to get a ticket for something, unsafe for conditions, careless, something. It would be a different ticket, but, you lose control of your vehicle and hit someone/kill them, you're going to get cited for something. The secret isn't to insulate yourself from liability in the event of an accident, you lose control of your trailer/truck and hurt someone, under or overweight, you're getting sued and you're almost certainly going to lose. The secret is NOT losing control in the first place. Going from a 150 to a 250 gives you more control. Going from a SRW to DRW gives you more control. Going from a DRW to a semi gives you more control. But none of those changes in any way insulates you from liability if the "worst" happens. That's my point, not "tow with whatever you want", not at all, hopefully I'm clear both in my own actions (upgrading my truck) and my comments, that's NOT what I'm saying. I'm saying evaluate the more pressing risks first. Most pressing risk to me, I hurt someone, my family, my pets, and, if I'd had more truck, I wouldn't have done that. That's why I bought the 450, because I could buy safety for a reasonable price. And that's also why I didn't go from a 250 to 350 SRW, because while a little cheaper and would have been "legal" for my trailer, I wouldn't have bought anything that had value to me. Safety has value to me. Being under my "stickers" does not. My F450 has a lower "sticker" than a F350DRW (can't tow as much) of the same year. In fact, my dealer (who wanted to sell the F350 Platinum he had) told me "The 350 is better for towing, here, look at the stickers". And, in some crazy corner of the universe, I suppose he's right. I just choose not to let that level of insanity into my day to day thought process.

[Txfivver]

overtaxed you definitely made the right choice with the F450, as did I. The 14000 GVW rating on the F450 is a paper maximum anyway. It's to keep it from becoming a class 4 truck and raise the registration fees a bunch. I went from a '19 F350 to a '20 F450 and it tows my 16500 pound Solitude much much better. I had airbags on the F350 because it sagged below level when hitched up, the 450 is still tail high when hitched, definitely not the same spring pack! The huge brakes and commercial tires are added benefits. That's a very sad story about the toyhauler crash but you see it every day on the highway, F250's pulling trailers like mine is nuts! We put our heart and soul and a good chunk of our money in these rolling condo's, why would anyone tow it with something that "pulls it fine"?? people are crazy lol

[Overtaxed]

The 14000 GVW rating on the F450 is a paper maximum anyway.

This is a big part of the problem, IMHO. These "paper tigers" in the truck world. Notably the 250 and 450 class trucks, which are underrated from the factory to skirt registration/insurance/etc costs. IMHO, the 250 shouldn't exist at all, it's only there to beat regs. And the 350 DRW should also go away. HD pickups should be a 350SRW and a 450. And you know, that crazy "paper rating" exists in other trucks too, my 250 because of the derate, was only able to tow a little more than my 150 (by stickers). Having owned and towed with both trucks, let me be the first to say "that's hogwash!". These paper derates are really bad for maintaining the image that the "sticker tell you what you can do safely", shoot, it's arguable if the sticker even tells you what you can do legally! Lots of places don't give a hoot about GVWR and only look at RAWR/tire ratings. It's just way, way too convoluted and confusing, and, even if you do understand it (as many here do) the conclusions you draw from it make no sense at all (buy a 350 DRW to tow more than a 450, for example).

The big things for me on the 450 were the commercial tires (they are rated to carry WAY more weight than I will ever put on the truck, in fact, I don't even air them up anywhere near max because, reading the load/tire chart, it's not even close to necessary) and the turning radius. The "lower towing rating", for me, wasn't an issue. Bigger brakes, better tires, better turning, lower "legal" towing. As I've stated, that last thing is the least of my concerns (although to be fair, you'd need a monster of a trailer to overload a 450, per the stickers, so while a silly discussion point that a 350 can carry more than 450, it's really moot in most trailer towing situations).

[Brewhedd]

It's that you shouldn't do it because, as you said, you're putting lives in danger, not because you're afraid of "the man" or some crazy combinations of events that could happen that would put you at fault in an accident where you wouldn't be if you weren't overweight.

I'm not pulling overweight because of possibly harming someone and the liability. I don't want to end up broke and in jail, everyone should fear the "man" if they are doing something illegal. Also, there doesn't have to be a "crazy combination of events". All it would take is to lose control, not be able to stop quick enough or just about any scenario where someone is killed or severely injured. Maybe you think that's a longshot but once a lawyer finds out the owner was pulling overweight (and that's on his short list) you are pretty much done.

Anyone that is pulling more than their truck is rated for needs to get a different truck. It will be a lot cheaper than losing your home and savings.