New to RV

[Overtaxed]

I'm not pulling overweight because of possibly harming someone and the liability. I don't want to end up broke and in jail, everyone should fear the "man" if they are doing something illegal. Also, there doesn't have to be a "crazy combination of events". All it would take is to lose control, not be able to stop quick enough or just about any scenario where someone is killed or severely injured. Maybe you think that's a longshot but once a lawyer finds out the owner was pulling overweight (and that's on his short list) you are pretty much done.

Anyone that is pulling more than their truck is rated for needs to get a different truck. It will be a lot cheaper than losing your home and savings.

I think we are basically saying the same thing. All I'm saying, being underweight in no way removes your liability nor does being overweight automatically assign liability. Speeding is illegal too, if you're going 66 in a 65 and someone sideswipes you, guess what? They're still at fault, even though you were doing something illegal during that accident. Does being overweight mean your more likely to be assigned liability in some situations? Yes, I think that's probably true, but those situation aren't common, usually it's dead on clear who's at fault in an accident. Someone hits you from the rear, someone runs a stop light, etc. Might being overweight come up in some of these situations? I suppose, it's possible, just like it's possible the tint on your windows could be at issue, or the wear level of your tires, or the million other things that a lawyer could go after. If you do it because you're afraid of the man, that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. I just don't like spreading that fear with unsubstantiated "you won't be covered" or "you're automatically at fault" which as far as I can tell, is very, very rare. Even the post that was put in here, seeming to show someone losing it "all" because of an overweight tow that was, towards the end, seemingly determined to be a troll thread.

Simply put, tow with enough truck/in ratings because it'll help you avoid an accident, because it certainly doesn't insulate you from liability if you're in an accident. Might it "help"? Sure, I guess so. But you're still going to get sued, and if the accident is your fault, you're still going to pay, perhaps losing everything you own.

[Brewhedd]

Even the post that was put in here, seeming to show someone losing it "all" because of an overweight tow that was, towards the end, seemingly determined to be a troll thread.

A troll thread? Yeah, right.

Simply put, tow with enough truck/in ratings because it'll help you avoid an accident, because it certainly doesn't insulate you from liability if you're in an accident. Might it "help"? Sure, I guess so. But you're still going to get sued, and if the accident is your fault, you're still going to pay, perhaps losing everything you own.

No kidding, duh.

Towing overweight should not be minimized, it gives an attorney another tool to remove your wealth because it is illegal. It adds "gas to the fire" in a case where an accident is your fault. You keep minimizing this for some reason. Like I said, if you are worth into 7 figures, that is very serious motivation for an attorney. Also like I said, if anyone is towing overweight (and you have considerable assets) get a different truck. It's just not worth the risk, even if you might consider it a slight risk. I'm done.

[attaboy]

As a new rver I find this thread to be very informative and helpful.
Thanks to overtaxed and brewhedd for very well thought out opinions.
Difference of opinion is good when done maturely as was done on this thread.

Thanks
Bob A.

[FlakKnight]

If you run anything mechanical, load bearing or electrical at 100% ratings or more, durability will dip into your wallet even if liability doesn't.

Personally there's a difference between loading that sofa in the Corolla to go cross town that one time and towing an RV significantly overweight for long periods. Even if I felt it towed safely I'd just be afraid of wear and tear expenses.

[Overtaxed]

If you run anything mechanical, load bearing or electrical at 100% ratings or more, durability will dip into your wallet even if liability doesn't.

Personally there's a difference between loading that sofa in the Corolla to go cross town that one time and towing an RV significantly overweight for long periods. Even if I felt it towed safely I'd just be afraid of wear and tear expenses.

One thing I've heard, for sure, is that towing really heavy (or overloaded) on SRW has a tendency to tear tires up really bad; I've read reports of people going through tires every 10K. Which makes sense, running tires at max load has to wear them heavily compared to running them without full loading.

Beyond tires though, there's not a lot of difference between SRW and DRW that you're going to wear out. The axle is different, but a SRW axle is typically rated to WAY more than you can load on a truck without breaking it in half. Tires are a big one though, and you can spend some money if you're towing a lot and burning the tires off regularly. It's also one of the big reasons that I went up to a 450, bigger brakes, tires that are rated way over what I'll ever tow and higher gear ratio rear end, putting less stress on the engine (although, TBH, I don't see this as a major issue, less need for HP but more revolutions, pick your poison).

[FlakKnight]

Related story. When we were younger my dad bought a 35 foot travel trailer for the family cross country trip. Had ordered a 2500 diesel suburban, but factory delays made it too late so we pulled it with our older gas 1500 and an aftermarket hitch.

Going up the Rockies was at 15 mph. It was basically totalled 3 months later when we returned. Engine, breaks, suspension, tires, hitch frame welds, everything was on the verge of giving up or broke due to stress and heat from the trip.

No one died except the 1500 and sure it was accelerated due to degree of abuse, but it definitely ruined a truck from towing even though it "worked". But there's a difference between 200 and 2000 pounds overloaded and the Rockies vs a 2hr drive to the local lake.

[BobKilmer]

Going back to the original question you definitely need a 1 ton truck for that RV. However, I don't think you will ever see the pin weights that are mentioned here. If you put the Harley in the back your pin weight is going to go down, not up. The weight is behind the axles so the trailer weight goes up but the pin weight goes down.

I have a 381M and putting 800 pounds in the garage like you might have for a Harley drops the pin weight by 322 pounds. A typical loading of my 381M adds 3,000 pounds to the total weight but only increases the pin weight by 300 pounds due to the weight distribution. If I try to make a very uneven load (waste tanks full and nothing in the garage) I can get as high as 3,100 pounds of pin weight, but I would never tow like that. So I would be very surprised if you ever got over 3,000 pounds for a 350G.

From my signature you can see I tow the 381M with a SRW F-350. I am well within my axle limits, tire ratings, payload, GVWR, and every other measure. Yes a dually would give me more margin but I am pleased with the SRW. The one difference that you have is if you plan to have five adults in the vehicle you need to take that into account. If you want to message me I can help you understand what that does and the limits you need to consider. My guess would be that with five passengers and a typical load you will be right at the top of a SRW payload and GVWR.

There is another option you can consider as well. You could go with a long-bed F-350 SRW. They now have a higher GVWR (12,400 pounds) and payload (up to 4,580), sort of like half way between a typical 350 SRW and a dually. I won't engage on the other pros/cons of SRW versus DRW other than payload and GVWR, as that is an area of personal preference and choice.

I personally agree with staying within all the towing limits. If there is an accident I don't want to be left wondering if being over a limit was an issue or if someone was hurt or killed, if I could have prevented it.

I hope this helps.

[BobKilmer]

One thing I've heard, for sure, is that towing really heavy (or overloaded) on SRW has a tendency to tear tires up really bad; I've read reports of people going through tires every 10K. Which makes sense, running tires at max load has to wear them heavily compared to running them without full loading.

Beyond tires though, there's not a lot of difference between SRW and DRW that you're going to wear out. The axle is different, but a SRW axle is typically rated to WAY more than you can load on a truck without breaking it in half. Tires are a big one though, and you can spend some money if you're towing a lot and burning the tires off regularly. It's also one of the big reasons that I went up to a 450, bigger brakes, tires that are rated way over what I'll ever tow and higher gear ratio rear end, putting less stress on the engine (although, TBH, I don't see this as a major issue, less need for HP but more revolutions, pick your poison).

I checked the tires on my 2019 SRW F-350. They are each rated at 3,640 pounds, so they match the drive axle limit at 7,230 pounds. At my max payload there is still 900 pounds of margin on the tires and rear axle. My experience so far is that after 9,500 miles, most of that towing my 381M, they still look new.

[Overtaxed]

If there is an accident I don't want to be left wondering if being over a limit was an issue or if someone was hurt or killed, if I could have prevented it.

That's exactly how I feel about it, however, I don't see why "over limit" is any bigger a consideration than anything else for some people. Let's take the real world situation, you're under the stickers on a F350 towing and a back tire lets loose, you lose control of the vehicle and kill someone. It's abundantly clear in that situation that a DRW "could have prevented" the accident, right? And this situation, while unlikely, is real world; while it's hard to find news reports/case law on being over GVWR as illegal, it's very easy to find pictures of RV's blown from the road or reduced to splinters attached to SRW trucks. Before anyone accuses me of fear mongering, no, it's not common, but, yes, it does happen. The 2 common situations are a sway that gets out of control (that a DRW would have prevented) or a rear tire goes out (that a DRW would have prevented), either leading to a serious accident. While we can debate endlessly on the differences between a 250 and 350 SRW (is it safer to tow, from the perspective of "miles driven per accident" or "seriousness of the accident"), there's not much debate at all between SRW and DRW, the answer is "yes, it's safer". I think that we pretty much all know that because it's immediately obvious with a DRW that greater redundancy/contact surface has been achieved and that some types of accidents (how common? Don't know) are avoided with a DRW that are not with a SRW.

So, back to your statement. Let's say I had a 350 SRW (which would have been close, but I think likely within sticker limits with my 351M. The 351M on my 2019 was actually "within sticker" for tires and axles, just not for GVWR of the truck because of the 10K derate on 250's) instead of my 250. I decided, "I'm within limits, I'm fine" and then had one of these types of accidents that would obviously have been avoided with a DRW. I just don't see a lot of moral relief, if any, that I would have gotten by knowing I followed some sticker rating on a door jam. Yes, for the purposes of this discussion, let's say I agree, I'll be able to avoid a lawsuit or a "worse" lawsuit because I followed the stickers. OK, yeah for me. Someone is still hurt or worse because of what I did. Sure, I guess I can say "I wasn't doing anything wrong" but I cannot say "I did everything I could" to avoid that accident because it's not true, that accident wouldn't have happened if I'd had more truck. And having a DRW in no way insulates you from this moral quandary, people who REALLY want to put this issue to bed buy a semi and haul with that which is even better, of course, than a DRW pickup truck.

And what you said, while my own personal mantra, is a difficult thing to achieve in practice. OK, so you go up to DRW, "nothing you could have done to prevent it" anymore, right? Wrong. There are plenty of things you can still do to prevent it. Your driving along in your 550 and someone stops short, you hit them and they are hurt. Disk brakes on the trailer could have avoided it. Your driving along, a tire lets loose on the trailer completely unexpectedly (no warning) and you lose control, putting a set of 17.5's on the trailer could have avoided it. It's very difficult for me to imagine being in an accident that's my fault where there was really "nothing" I could have done to avoid it, even simple things like "going slower" or "paying more attention" are at issue in a whole lot of accidents.

[BobKilmer]

That's exactly how I feel about it, however, I don't see why "over limit" is any bigger a consideration than anything else for some people. Let's take the real world situation, you're under the stickers on a F350 towing and a back tire lets loose, you lose control of the vehicle and kill someone. It's abundantly clear in that situation that a DRW "could have prevented" the accident, right? And this situation, while unlikely, is real world; while it's hard to find news reports/case law on being over GVWR as illegal, it's very easy to find pictures of RV's blown from the road or reduced to splinters attached to SRW trucks. Before anyone accuses me of fear mongering, no, it's not common, but, yes, it does happen. The 2 common situations are a sway that gets out of control (that a DRW would have prevented) or a rear tire goes out (that a DRW would have prevented), either leading to a serious accident. While we can debate endlessly on the differences between a 250 and 350 SRW (is it safer to tow, from the perspective of "miles driven per accident" or "seriousness of the accident"), there's not much debate at all between SRW and DRW, the answer is "yes, it's safer". I think that we pretty much all know that because it's immediately obvious with a DRW that greater redundancy/contact surface has been achieved and that some types of accidents (how common? Don't know) are avoided with a DRW that are not with a SRW.

So, back to your statement. Let's say I had a 350 SRW (which would have been close, but I think likely within sticker limits with my 351M. The 351M on my 2019 was actually "within sticker" for tires and axles, just not for GVWR of the truck because of the 10K derate on 250's) instead of my 250. I decided, "I'm within limits, I'm fine" and then had one of these types of accidents that would obviously have been avoided with a DRW. I just don't see a lot of moral relief, if any, that I would have gotten by knowing I followed some sticker rating on a door jam. Yes, for the purposes of this discussion, let's say I agree, I'll be able to avoid a lawsuit or a "worse" lawsuit because I followed the stickers. OK, yeah for me. Someone is still hurt or worse because of what I did. Sure, I guess I can say "I wasn't doing anything wrong" but I cannot say "I did everything I could" to avoid that accident because it's not true, that accident wouldn't have happened if I'd had more truck. And having a DRW in no way insulates you from this moral quandary, people who REALLY want to put this issue to bed buy a semi and haul with that which is even better, of course, than a DRW pickup truck.

And what you said, while my own personal mantra, is a difficult thing to achieve in practice. OK, so you go up to DRW, "nothing you could have done to prevent it" anymore, right? Wrong. There are plenty of things you can still do to prevent it. Your driving along in your 550 and someone stops short, you hit them and they are hurt. Disk brakes on the trailer could have avoided it. Your driving along, a tire lets loose on the trailer completely unexpectedly (no warning) and you lose control, putting a set of 17.5's on the trailer could have avoided it. It's very difficult for me to imagine being in an accident that's my fault where there was really "nothing" I could have done to avoid it, even simple things like "going slower" or "paying more attention" are at issue in a whole lot of accidents.

I never said "I did everything possible" to prevent an accident or "there was nothing I could have done". The only way to do that is to not drive.

You are speculating that a DRW is safer than a SRW. When there is a study to prove that I will believe it. There are far too many other single point failures in both designs to support a conclusion that adding a dual rear tire makes any significant difference. I hear quite often that a DRW is better in a tire failure. That may be the case, but only if the payload is derated to the same as the SRW. The moment you go over the SRW limit in payload, the tire failure scenario still leaves you with an overloaded tire that can immediately fail. That is why when I say when there is a study, with real engineering data, then I will believe there is a significant safety difference. As for all the stability arguments, both vehicles have to pass the same stability tests at their weight limits. The only difference is that the DRW trucks have a LOWER requirement for all of the performance rating tests, but their stability at their respective load limits is exactly the same.

I can't see any amount of rationalization that says it is ok to knowingly drive with an illegal condition on your vehicle. When we get behind the wheel of a vehicle there is some risk involved but we are expected to follow the law. Starting out with an known safety issue entirely changes the equation. If something does happen you shift from being in an accident situation to possibly being criminally liable. I wouldn't drive with an overloaded vehicle any more than I would drive with one that had bad brakes or tires. And yes I drive the speed limit and keep my distance as best possible. As I said, everyone makes their own decisions, but starting out with a vehicle that is in an illegal condition is something I just wouldn't do.