Testing?

[Wicked ace]

I'm definitely not wanting to shut down again. I do think we can open up 80% or more without major implications if everyone really commits to thinking and acting in a safe way. The problem is that we need to convince everyone that their individual behavior really does matter at the societal level. I find it puzzling that the message isn't incredibly clear, as the rewards for good behavior are immense for the individual, for society, and for the folks currently at the helm.

Maybe airplanes can stay shut down? I live about 30 miles outside the heart of a large metropolitan area. A couple of months without the scream of a jet engine overhead or the irritating drone of small aircraft was a welcome relief for tired ears. I was awash in the calm and pleasantness of QUIET! The skies turned an azure blue! The birds were signing their little hearts out! These last couple of weeks I have been shocked out of my daydream.

[JKellerJr]

Moving this to the top for clarification:

. I'm not advocating keeping everything shut down I know the reality, I know people have families and that they are getting stir crazy at home.

I really should have done a much better job of explaining what I was trying to respond to and I apologize for that. But the statement I quoted and was responding to at least suggested that we shouldn't be opening the economy. I'm sure there is more to your thoughts, I was just commenting on that portion. We probably agree more than disagree on what should be being done in relation to striking a balance on safety and reopening

I do my best to protect myself however I too have the right to go beyond the dungeon you describe. For that reason I believe it's on all of us to do the best we can to protect ourselves and each other. Wearing a mask or standing a few feet apart, maybe speaking a little louder isn't difficult or a hard thing to ask.

Agree 100%.

Since a voluntary compliance isn't working and you only need to read Jerryr's and Backtrack2015's posts above to see where that is going, I think it would be a good thing to make compliance mandatory. Let them scream, it's good for them. But we won't get that because the man who should be in charge has vacated, left the stage, moved on.... you get it?

Some states are getting worse, some are stable, some are getting better. Cali, and Hawaii are getting worse and they were early and hard on lock-downs and some of the slowest to re open. FL and Texas also getting worse with the exact opposite strategy but were doing better until recently. Which is the right way? The east apparently has a different strain then the west. Heard today that Chicago's strain was different also. You really want one person making decisions for the whole country? (and more specifically the "one person" we have now?) So in Montana they should have the same response and restrictions as New York? Frankly the governors have enough issues managing things at the state level. I really don't want Washington handling everything. Could the Federal response been infinitely better, especially in support for the states, Agree 100% Washington's response has been horrid and surely cost lives

BTW.... For years now I have gotten a flu shot each winter, an ounce of prevention....Also the flu is much more treatable even in it's constantly mutating strains than Covid 19. Night and day...night and day.

Not the point I made. I said as much, the responses aren't and shouldn't be the same. But the fact is we let tens of thousands of people die every year from the flu that could be saved if we shut down every winter to slow the spread. Not realistic so we make a conscious decision that its acceptable to let people die for the sake of the economy and the rest of us. The only difference here is how many deaths can we live with. The point being a balance needs to be struck and when statements are made, especially from politicians, like "I'm not trading lives for the economy" doesn't help. Especially when we do it every year

Also where was the PLAN? There is a provision called the War Powers Resolution that was largely neglected but could have had a big impact in getting masks and other PPE ramped up and out to us all. Yes, it's short term and meant to be.

That may be, I really don't know. I tend to believe if the capacity existed someone would be using it even without being forced to. The money making possibilities would take care of that. I haven't seen a single "leader" from either side of the aisle pop up and say "hey so and so could be making masks". Don't you think every politician is looking for something they can take credit for or shift blame too?

It assumes that someone, anyone, has the capability to to actually produce more of these things and is inside the country. The vast majority of the masks are made outside of the country. Unless there is some factory just sitting idle somewhere and a whole bunch of raw material stocked somewhere. Just wishing or demanding it doesn't make it possible. The demand from the health care field alone went up exponentially, not counting any for the general public or the other industries that use them. And that the whole world needed them at the same time was a recipe for disaster.

"When it comes to the regional market, China has long been the largest respirator mask producer and exporter in the world. China made half the world’s masks before the coronavirus emerged there, and it has expanded production nearly 12-fold since then."


And we still don't have enough (disclaimer: not fact checked just a stat google found)

I see some governors trying their best to protect all of their constituents and others just roll over to the whim and pleasure of the man. The man who by the way I mentioned vacated but should in reality be leading us out of this. I don't know where you are located so I can't respond to the vacation schedule of your state's executive.

I can only assume which Governors you are referring to since your not giving an example but I'm pretty sure I can figure that out. (For clarity I didn't vote for the guy we have now, but I tend to look at actual results, I could care less who is "right" just someone please figure it out)

As of yesterday which includes the latest jump from FL:

Cases per million: IL 7th, FL 34th
Deaths per million: IL 8th, FL 27th

So who was right and who is pandering to someone?

IL was second only to Cali in locking down and one of the slowest to reopen. FL never locked down to the extent we did and has almost double the total population and over double the population of the most vulnerable age group. IL has 2 1/2 times as many cases per million and more than 3 1/2 times as many deaths per million. I think we can put to rest the "summer weather will help" theory. IL has been doing better for the last couple of weeks or so but it will take a real long time to catch us. We really wont know until its over what the right actions were.

Testing, tracing, PPE, distancing are all recommended by health safety experts (CDC) as PART of a comprehensive plan to lessen or mitigate exposure.

You mean this CDC/health experts:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...rus-2020-01-30

"In fact the U.S. surgeon general recently urged the public to “STOP BUYING MASKS!” “They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus"

I realize things change as we learn but saying these guys have it all figured out?? How many lives did they cost by specifically saying to NOT where a mask. Seems it would have been a fairly common sense thing to NOT say unless you were sure. Wearing a mask seems to be a fairly common sense approach against a respiratory virus but I'm not the "expert". Why aren't we calling them out??

Each state and governor is left to fend for themselves.

And having the feds purchase everything would have somehow magically resulted in more masks being available? And just who would get to decide who gets priority? I also think there should have been a much more coordinated response from the feds but also I don't think it would have made much of a difference in the amount of PPE,etc available. Possibly could have been quicker and for sure less chaotic. Maybe we could have snaked another country out of theirs but the total amount available is the same regardless. Unless I guess there is this vast untapped capacity just sitting around that no one can find.

The states that felt there was no alarm, went and threw the doors open are seeing a backlash now

Possibly, we'll see where things go. No doubt that some states are seeing jumps recently, but its not just the "no alarm" states. Cali?

Acquiring what is needed became a free-for-all because a big monkey wrench was thrown into the supply chain and you saw it's affects.
Again I see suggestions, recommendations, proposals but no leadership or example set.

Yup I agree I don't believe we have good leadership, from either side, I don't think its all on one person no matter how much I dislike him. Plenty of blame to go around. Scientists have been warning about this forever and no one has done anything substantial about it, some talk but very little action. Our current administration sure hasn't helped and more than likely made it worse but we were screwed regardless.

Instead wellllll....you know what happens in Tulsa tomorrow. I think that is part of your answer whether you want to admit it or not.

Not sure what you mean here but I think you want to infer that I am a supporter of our current president and that is where my opinions are coming from. I believe I've made myself clear, that is nowhere near the case. I just try to follow the facts as I see them, try to weed out the bull**** to make the best decision I can for my family and employees. I won't lay blame at anyone's feet solely because of what party they belong to. The person I probably have listened to most since this has started was Cuomo. When I caught him he seemed to be shooting straight, trying to find a balance, acknowledged there was more than a single facet to the problem, and seemed less concerned about playing politics. Maybe not, I didnt watch him a bunch.

Edit:

The biggest failure which cost the most lives and damage to the economy IMO was the lack of urgency early on. And that blame lays solely at the feet of the administration.

[bertschb]

So much time spent placing blame on others and questioning what our leaders are doing. Does anybody here really believe it's the government's responsibility to protect us from the virus??? If so, have you ever considered taking care of yourself?

If you don't want to be exposed to the virus, stay home. If you don't care, get on with your life. Either way, take care of yourself and your family and please let others do the same - as they see fit.

[JKellerJr]

So much time spent placing blame on others and questioning what our leaders are doing. Does anybody here really believe it's the government's responsibility to protect us from the virus???

Not necessarily. But I would appreciate them not destroying the economy while they muddle around trying to save us.

[Wicked ace]

I really should have done a much better job of explaining what I was trying to respond to and I apologize for that. But the statement I quoted and was responding to at least suggested that we shouldn't be opening the economy. I'm sure there is more to your thoughts, I was just commenting on that portion. We probably agree more than disagree on what should be being done in relation to striking a balance on safety and reopening

After reading through, I'm sure you are right.

Agree 100%.

Some states are getting worse, some are stable, some are getting better. Cali, and Hawaii are getting worse and they were early and hard on lock-downs and some of the slowest to re open. FL and Texas also getting worse with the exact opposite strategy but were doing better until recently. Which is the right way? The east apparently has a different strain then the west. Heard today that Chicago's strain was different also. You really want one person making decisions for the whole country? (and more specifically the "one person" we have now?) So in Montana they should have the same response and restrictions as New York? Frankly the governors have enough issues managing things at the state level. I really don't want Washington handling everything. Could the Federal response been infinitely better, especially in support for the states, Agree 100% Washington's response has been horrid and surely cost lives

I haven't seen anywhere that there are differing strains in fact from the things I have read doctors and scientists are curious and glad the fears they had of mutations haven't happened. Then again I'm not a doctor nor a scientist. I'll lay the states causes of reverses in trends directly at the feet of people failing to follow good practice. If you choose a hard road and then throw away caution to the wind what would you expect? Again I say put a mandate in place and a leader that would reinforce it and be an example would go a long way.
I don't want and didn't say I want a single person making decisions, my bad if that is what I inferred. In life I have found that somebody has to be the point man whether you at your company or the "one person" we have now should have assumed the mantle or you get chaos and cacophony, as we have seen in the federal response.

Not the point I made. I said as much, the responses aren't and shouldn't be the same. But the fact is we let tens of thousands of people die every year from the flu that could be saved if we shut down every winter to slow the spread. Not realistic so we make a conscious decision that its acceptable to let people die for the sake of the economy and the rest of us. The only difference here is how many deaths can we live with. The point being a balance needs to be struck and when statements are made, especially from politicians, like "I'm not trading lives for the economy" doesn't help. Especially when we do it every year

I'm not totally with you but I see and accept what you are saying.

That may be, I really don't know. I tend to believe if the capacity existed someone would be using it even without being forced to. The money making possibilities would take care of that. I haven't seen a single "leader" from either side of the aisle pop up and say "hey so and so could be making masks". Don't you think every politician is looking for something they can take credit for or shift blame too?

It assumes that someone, anyone, has the capability to to actually produce more of these things and is inside the country. The vast majority of the masks are made outside of the country. Unless there is some factory just sitting idle somewhere and a whole bunch of raw material stocked somewhere. Just wishing or demanding it doesn't make it possible. The demand from the health care field alone went up exponentially, not counting any for the general public or the other industries that use them. And that the whole world needed them at the same time was a recipe for disaster.

"When it comes to the regional market, China has long been the largest respirator mask producer and exporter in the world. China made half the world’s masks before the coronavirus emerged there, and it has expanded production nearly 12-fold since then."


And we still don't have enough (disclaimer: not fact checked just a stat google found)

The capacity to make more masks available should not have been left to the forces of capitalism in this case. Times were and are still dire. The raw material is abundant and readily available in this country. Some may have to put off new carpet in the house for awhile. The War Powers Act allows that emergency production of anything we as a nation in dire times. These are dire times. If we as a nation could produce thousands of tanks, planes and simple supplies in matters of months during WW II I'm certain in this modern time masks could be made here.
To add not all PPE production is in China or Vietnam etc. I know 3M has production facilities in the states. I used to deal in this constantly in my job. You take notice of these things. However you are probably right China is the largest producer and see how fast they ramped up?

I can only assume which Governors you are referring to since your not giving an example but I'm pretty sure I can figure that out. (For clarity I didn't vote for the guy we have now, but I tend to look at actual results, I could care less who is "right" just someone please figure it out)

As of yesterday which includes the latest jump from FL:

Cases per million: IL 7th, FL 34th
Deaths per million: IL 8th, FL 27th

So who was right and who is pandering to someone?

IL was second only to Cali in locking down and one of the slowest to reopen. FL never locked down to the extent we did and has almost double the total population and over double the population of the most vulnerable age group. IL has 2 1/2 times as many cases per million and more than 3 1/2 times as many deaths per million. I think we can put to rest the "summer weather will help" theory. IL has been doing better for the last couple of weeks or so but it will take a real long time to catch us. We really wont know until its over what the right actions were.

To this I can only point to my state. I believe our governor has handled a hard, hard job well. In fact I learned today the balance of the state (my county / area) will be open next Friday. I know he has been embattled by the other side which was couched and encouraged by the example and rhetoric.

You mean this CDC/health experts:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...rus-2020-01-30

"In fact the U.S. surgeon general recently urged the public to “STOP BUYING MASKS!” “They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus"

I realize things change as we learn but saying these guys have it all figured out?? How many lives did they cost by specifically saying to NOT where a mask. Seems it would have been a fairly common sense thing to NOT say unless you were sure. Wearing a mask seems to be a fairly common sense approach against a respiratory virus but I'm not the "expert". Why aren't we calling them out??

That Article is well dated and old. Dr Fauci this week went on to explain that statement and it's reason. Because Medical personnel were in such shortage of the PPE they needed and there was a mad rush to buy up anything it was thought that making that announcement would help free up supply for the medical community. If you look the guidance has since changed, I'm not sure of the date but it was some time ago and been reinforced by issuing guidance to make a mask for oneself.

And having the feds purchase everything would have somehow magically resulted in more masks being available? And just who would get to decide who gets priority? I also think there should have been a much more coordinated response from the feds but also I don't think it would have made much of a difference in the amount of PPE,etc available. Possibly could have been quicker and for sure less chaotic. Maybe we could have snaked another country out of theirs but the total amount available is the same regardless. Unless I guess there is this vast untapped capacity just sitting around that no one can find.

There are channels to procure things and "that guys" S-i-L empowered himself to set up an ad-hoc agency bypassing those channels. Also they empowered themselves in the name of the US government to redirect supplies. It caused a mess and biddding wars for things that did in some part largely sat in warehouses. 'Nuff said there.

Possibly, we'll see where things go. No doubt that some states are seeing jumps recently, but its not just the "no alarm" states. Cali?

Yup I agree I don't believe we have good leadership, from either side, I don't think its all on one person no matter how much I dislike him. Plenty of blame to go around. Scientists have been warning about this forever and no one has done anything substantial about it, some talk but very little action. Our current administration sure hasn't helped and more than likely made it worse but we were screwed regardless.

Amen brother

Not sure what you mean here but I think you want to infer that I am a supporter of our current president and that is where my opinions are coming from. I believe I've made myself clear, that is nowhere near the case. I just try to follow the facts as I see them, try to weed out the bull**** to make the best decision I can for my family and employees. I won't lay blame at anyone's feet solely because of what party they belong to. The person I probably have listened to most since this has started was Cuomo. When I caught him he seemed to be shooting straight, trying to find a balance, acknowledged there was more than a single facet to the problem, and seemed less concerned about playing politics. Maybe not, I didnt watch him a bunch.

Edit:

The biggest failure which cost the most lives and damage to the economy IMO was the lack of urgency early on. And that blame lays solely at the feet of the administration.

I wasn't implying your inclinations and I'm sorry you took it that way, I was strong in my explanation. I was trying to dance around it because..... However I do see an epic fail happening in this country because of the Administration and leader.
I agree Cuomo has been good in his explanations and open telling it straight. Also Governors Murphy in NJ, Carney in Delaware and Wolf in my state, Pennsyvania. If you recall seven northeast states banded together, the first to do so, to work as a unit to procure needed equipment and supplies as well as coordinate among themselves. This was in a response to a lack of coordinated help and guidance.
I've lived through all of it on the periphery of the worst hot spots.

[Wicked ace]

So much time spent placing blame on others and questioning what our leaders are doing. Does anybody here really believe it's the government's responsibility to protect us from the virus??? If so, have you ever considered taking care of yourself?

If you don't want to be exposed to the virus, stay home. If you don't care, get on with your life. Either way, take care of yourself and your family and please let others do the same - as they see fit.

You certainly have a right to express yourself but if you don't like what is being said you could move on too.....just sayin'

[JKellerJr]

The capacity to make more masks available should not have been left to the forces of capitalism in this case. Times were and are still dire. The raw material is abundant and readily available in this country. Some may have to put off new carpet in the house for awhile. The War Powers Act allows that emergency production of anything we as a nation in dire times. These are dire times. If we as a nation could produce thousands of tanks, planes and simple supplies in matters of months during WW II I'm certain in this modern time masks could be made here.
To add not all PPE production is in China or Vietnam etc. I know 3M has production facilities in the states. I used to deal in this constantly in my job. You take notice of these things. However you are probably right China is the largest producer and see how fast they ramped up?

You may be right. I really don’t know either way. I’m just not convinced it’s that easy. I read an article a few weeks ago that we weren’t going to have enough glass viles for the vaccine if and when there is one. The world just doesn’t have the capacity to ramp up fast enough for something like this.

That Article is well dated and old. Dr Fauci this week went on to explain that statement and it's reason. Because Medical personnel were in such shortage of the PPE they needed and there was a mad rush to buy up anything it was thought that making that announcement would help free up supply for the medical community. If you look the guidance has since changed, I'm not sure of the date but it was some time ago and been reinforced by issuing guidance to make a mask for oneself.

I realize it was an old article, That was my point, the flip flop. They very specifically said to NOT wear them They WONT help. They either were flat wrong or they intentionally lied. That’s really the only to options. And I also believe that the WHO and CDC aren’t on the same page in regards to mask even today. And we wonder why everyone isn’t on the same page and listening to the “experts”

https://www.wdrb.com/news/coronaviru...d3a75fbc1.html

[Wicked ace]

You may be right. I really don’t know either way. I’m just not convinced it’s that easy. I read an article a few weeks ago that we weren’t going to have enough glass viles for the vaccine if and when there is one. The world just doesn’t have the capacity to ramp up fast enough for something like this.

You don't know if you don't try and if you do nothing you are guilty of the gravest sins.

I realize it was an old article, That was my point, the flip flop. They very specifically said to NOT wear them They WONT help. They either were flat wrong or they intentionally lied. That’s really the only to options. And I also believe that the WHO and CDC aren’t on the same page in regards to mask even today. And we wonder why everyone isn’t on the same page and listening to the “experts”

https://www.wdrb.com/news/coronaviru...d3a75fbc1.html

I went through Fauci's reason for the guidance at that time. He and the medical community saw the crisis from a better view than you or I. "When the facts change, I change my mind" although it is a quote made by Maynard Keynes regarding economics they are still wise words.
Here is a report with an explanation that isn't watered down or parsed to promote a view. Also a link to the WHO web page related to masks. You need to be cognizant in that the WHO is a world organization and we are a fractured, fat and spoiled country so how a message by them is conveyed by the isn't always black and white as some would have you believe.
And really Louisville KY? the home of Rich Mitch?
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52945210
https://www.who.int/emergencies/dise...w-to-use-masks

[JKellerJr]

I went through Fauci's reason for the guidance at that time. He and the medical community saw the crisis from a better view than you or I. "When the facts change, my opinion changes" although it is a quote made regarding investing they are still wise words. Here is a report with an explanation that isn't watered down or parsed to promote a view. Also a link to the WHO web page related to masks. You need to be cognizant in that the WHO is a world organization and we are a fractured, fat and spoiled country.
And really Louisville KY? the home of Rich Mitch?
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52945210
https://www.who.int/emergencies/dise...w-to-use-masks

I really don’t know who your referring to. I read zero partisan speak in that article. It was the first one that popped up. Does it make it better when it comes from ABC or are they secretly pro whatever also

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/cdc-of...ry?id=70958380

Fact remains until apparently very recently they were not on the same page.

What I read when I read Fauci’s “explanation” is. Well we didn’t have enough for the health care workers so we lied to the public so they would Hopefully stop looking for masks. They didn’t just “not recommend“ they left no doubt “stop buying masks they don’t help” that’s not “not recommending”. For a good reason?? Probably. My wife is a nurse though not the front lines anymore I’m fully on board with the need for them to come first. But you can’t lie and then backtrack and not expect some blow back and lack of trust from the at least some of the public.

I am fully cognizant of who the WHO is, not sure what that has to do with anything? They weren’t exactly right on the ball and transparent with this whole thing either. The AP ok?

https://apnews.com/3c061794970661042b18d5aeaaed9fae

Yes the rest of the world is a model of unity. Other countries don’t seem to have any issues with their government response

https://youtu.be/ADuM80DRFCM

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.lat...st%3f_amp=true

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...outputType=amp

Maybe we should all move to China they seem to have everything completely under control and no one seems to have any issues with the way their government handles things.

I think I’ll stick with my fractured fat and spoiled country. For all its issues still the best place in the world to live at least IMHO.

[bertschb]

You certainly have a right to express yourself but if you don't like what is being said you could move on too.....just sayin'

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I didn't say folks who disagree with me need to move on. I said folks who aren't worried about the virus can get on with their life. Meaning, they can leave their house, go to the grocery store, mingle with others in public, etc.