Towing Momentum 351m with F250 SRW short bed

[Rgkeaney]

I also see this time and again. And folks like kmagnum425 will likely not wish to respond because in this situation there is nothing you can do as a response that does not prove everyone else correct and prove yourself to be in the wrong.

He needs to open the drivers door, look at and take a picture of the yellow sticker... That will tell him the TOTAL PAYLOAD that includes his family body weight, anything he packs in the truck cab/bed, the 5th wheel hitch weight and the trailer pin weight. He will very quickly see just from that sticker that he is GROSSLY over the rating of the truck.

Then he would want to pay attention to the grey sticker in that drivers door jam, and take a look and picture of the rear axle load rating. Then hook to this trailer in it's loaded condition and with all the humans and junk he plans to take and get to a certified scale. Here.... at this scale.... he is going to have a stroke when he sees that he is maybe 1,000 lbs over the axle load rating as well as far over the tire load limit..... Or maybe he will not? Maybe he will not care at all. Maybe never hit a scale. If you never look, you'll never see it...

Then you have the mentality like what you see in this original post, the "I added XXX springs/airbags/Timbrens so now....." here you see that a truck owner assumes that his overloaded truck that is low in the rear due to being overloaded can now take on more than the rated weight because they "fixed" the sagging rear. The reason it sags to an extreme is because the springs are overburdened. If you are loaded within the engineering limits, it will sag to about level... and it needs no added hardware. If the weight distribution on a bumper pull is set up correctly, the front is not jacked up and the rear is leveled. It doesn't need additional hardware. But far to many folks feel that if you add some airbags to an overburdened truck, you can go far above the rated payload and axle weight ratings. Forget axles, brakes, frames, tires and wheels. You added some accessory springs, so your good to go now.

But that is a heck of a heavy weight unit on a 3/4 ton platform, dry weight 900 lbs over mine and I know I am pushing it with my payload and rear axle limits. But his... can also take on a toy in the garage the can weigh who knows how much and put even more load onto that unit and that truck.

Good luck kmagnum425. I truly hope you get many good and safe years of use from your toy collection. I also pray that you never hurt your own property, your own family or another innocent family. I am aware that many folks tow over all kinds of limits, some intentionally and some unbeknownst to them. Godspeed.

Larry and Dana.

Agree with most everything here. Question...if he does add a toy to the garage, and it’s behind the axels, wouldn’t that potentially lower the pin weight even though the total trailer weight increases?

Always trying to learn and confirm.

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[WhittleBurner]

To start, I agree with xrated above. Most people aren’t aware of the payload restrictions. Everyone needs to be aware as most simply look at towing capacity.

I’m one of those guys who believes that people need to make an informed decision and live with it. I pull a 31mb with a 2016 2500 ram diesel. Took it to the cat scales with trailer loaded with water and some supplies, but fridge not full. Truck filled with fuel and passengers.

My payload capacity according to the door is a meager 2119 lbs. Gvrw is 10,000.

After weighing I am indeed over my gvwr by about 500lbs. My drive axel weight with trailer is 5400 (GAWR is 6000 for that one) and my steer axel is 5040 (GAWR for steer axel is 5750). Some research showed me all components of the truck are the same between a 2500 and 3500 with the exception of leaf springs in 3500 and coil springs in 2500. And the transmission (Aison vs rfe)

When I drop the trailer on, my vehicle ends up perfectly level (41 inches to each front and rear wheel well)

So why all this info? I’m over GVWR by 500lbs. And it pulls like a dream. So I am not going to run out and buy a new truck simply because of the sticker. I know, some risk involved if I get into an accident. If people want to go buy anew truck based on that sticker, then more power to them.

If either of my axel weights were over their individual GAWR, my story would be different and I would be looking for a new truck. But not in this scenario.


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You are right about the rear axle, that and tires are probably the two most important weights to watch. You do want to stay withen your pin weight as if you are over it can cause undue wear on the truck. It may even effect how it tows. But axles and tires being overweight can cause problems fairly quickly.

[JColeman]

We seem to do this all the time...

There is no way to legally increase our payload. The yellow sticker is immutable.

But those who assure you that it can't be done safely by changing engineering are simply wrong.

The primary differences between a 3/4 ton and a 1 ton late model Ford are spring rates and a helper spring. The shocks are the same. The brakes are the same. The differential is the same. The engine and transmission are the same. The frame is the same. The weight of the trucks are essentially the same. There may be a difference in standard rear axle ratios but that is about performance and not safety.

If you add helper springs and air bags, two of the most common mods, you will not change your legal payload limits, but it is the height of ignorance to suggest that the engineering has not been altered.

So, the essential argument is always the same. There are those who will swear that if you go 50 lbs over payload then your insurance company will disavow you, Child Protective Services will take your children away and every class action lawyer in the country will take out national ads to sue you.

I have consistently challenged, and never lost to any one to show me any actual citation or regulation or evidence of any legal action ever taken in a payload circumstance for a non-commercial driver or rig. No one has ever been able toprove that this is more than urban legend.

OTOH, there are plenty of stupid ways to load and haul your rig. It is up to the individual to determine their own risk aversion and safety requirements.

[Rgkeaney]

You are right about the rear axle, that and tires are probably the two most important weights to watch. You do want to stay withen your pin weight as if you are over it can cause undue wear on the truck. It may even effect how it tows. But axles and tires being overweight can cause problems fairly quickly.

Whittle...you got me thinking so I learned something new. Love it!

I have been going off the published axle ratings from the ram website. When I looked at my door sticker (should have started there) I learned my front GAWR is actually 6000 and my rear is 6500. So feeling even better. Thanks for the comment!


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[larry0071]

Agree with most everything here. Question...if he does add a toy to the garage, and it’s behind the axels, wouldn’t that potentially lower the pin weight even though the total trailer weight increases?

Always trying to learn and confirm.

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If behind the rear axle, absolutely. I've never owned a toy hauler, but I thought that they typically kitted out with 3 axles, the rear most being visually further back than you would expect to see an axle on a standard TT/5th wheel. So I almost think that they are built thinking that you would pull the Harleys or the ATV's up tight into the garage bay to not allow it to lift the front much. I bet there are some toy hauler owners who have played around on scales and can speak to this. I'm not him :-)

[xrated]

To start, I agree with xrated above. Most people aren’t aware of the payload restrictions. Everyone needs to be aware as most simply look at towing capacity.

I’m one of those guys who believes that people need to make an informed decision and live with it. I pull a 31mb with a 2016 2500 ram diesel. Took it to the cat scales with trailer loaded with water and some supplies, but fridge not full. Truck filled with fuel and passengers.

My payload capacity according to the door is a meager 2119 lbs. Gvrw is 10,000.

After weighing I am indeed over my gvwr by about 500lbs. My drive axel weight with trailer is 5400 (GAWR is 6000 for that one) and my steer axel is 5040 (GAWR for steer axel is 5750). Some research showed me all components of the truck are the same between a 2500 and 3500 with the exception of leaf springs in 3500 and coil springs in 2500. And the transmission (Aison vs rfe)

When I drop the trailer on, my vehicle ends up perfectly level (41 inches to each front and rear wheel well)

So why all this info? I’m over GVWR by 500lbs. And it pulls like a dream. So I am not going to run out and buy a new truck simply because of the sticker. I know, some risk involved if I get into an accident. If people want to go buy anew truck based on that sticker, then more power to them.

If either of my axel weights were over their individual GAWR, my story would be different and I would be looking for a new truck. But not in this scenario.


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We all have to decide what risks we are willing to take, you, me, everyone. I am simply NOT willing to take the risk of being over on any of the listed weight/towing capacities....and I'm not, because of careful planning and the knowledge of how to calculate my needs before I bought the trailer that I now have. But having said that, I was in a place with a truck that was too small for the trailer I was towing, and I knew that I would purchase a large 5th Wheel Toy Hauler at some point in time, so I made the decision in 2017 to get rid of the F250 that had 2148 lb of payload capacity and buy a Dually that has 5270 lbs of payload capacity. It was definitely overkill for the tow behind that I had at the time I purchased it, but in March of 2019 I bought a G.D. Momentum 394M that has a GVWR of 20K lbs and I still had enough truck for that. Like I said, I'm simply not willing to take the risk and if asked, I will advise others on the correct way to size a truck/trailer combination....then it's up to them to decide yes or no....risk vs. reward....etc.

[kmagnum425]

First off, thanks for all the information, both negative and positive which why I asked for both good/bad and sprinkle in a smart ****** or 2.

I did hit the CAT scale of just the truck with all the normal weight when pulling the camper.

Diesel 6.7 to start with and biggest concern is around axle weight
Gross rear axle available= 6340
Actual rear axle loaded = 3460
Available axle weight = 2880
Camper PIN = 2780

So yes I am under but yes maxed.

My confusion is around the payload max. Tire & loading says 2243 but found another ford site saying the number is 3230lbs. At 3230lbs, I am under slightly but still maxed.
Also, thinking anything put in the hauler section will take some load off the PIN. I will weight again once I have the hauler to get actual numbers for all weights.

[Rgkeaney]

First off, thanks for all the information, both negative and positive which why I asked for both good/bad and sprinkle in a smart ****** or 2.

I did hit the CAT scale of just the truck with all the normal weight when pulling the camper.

Diesel 6.7 to start with and biggest concern is around axle weight
Gross rear axle available= 6340
Actual rear axle loaded = 3460
Available axle weight = 2880
Camper PIN = 2780

So yes I am under but yes maxed.

My confusion is around the payload max. Tire & loading says 2243 but found another ford site saying the number is 3230lbs. At 3230lbs, I am under slightly but still maxed.
Also, thinking anything put in the hauler section will take some load off the PIN. I will weight again once I have the hauler to get actual numbers for all weights.

Checking for understanding. Are you saying your payload weight, as listed on the tag inside your door, is 2243?

If so, and your pin for that trailer is already 2780, then I would say you are in dangerous territory. And I am one that pushes the envelope. What matters is what is on the door as that takes into account incidentals for the special model truck you may have purchased.

That tow vehicle seems dangerously under sized for the rv you are pulling. And again, I am a bit overweight but nothing like it looks like you will be.

When you get the rv, fill it full of water and go weigh again. See what those numbers look like. Best of luck!! Let us know what you find out.


Additional question: Did you have your 5th wheel hitch in the bed when you weighed the truck? That’s gonna add a couple hundred pounds and reduce your payload even more if you didn’t.


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[bertschb]

My confusion is around the payload max. Tire & loading says 2243 but found another ford site saying the number is 3230lbs.

As others have said, the most important number is your particular truck's payload rating. You will find this on a sticker on the driver's door jamb. Ford towing documents/websites don't mean anything as they are based on best case hypothetical truck configurations (e.g. 2WD, 2 door, long bed, gas, etc). Once you have your truck's payload rating from the door sticker, it will be easy to see if you are exceeding your payload rating. If you are, the rest of the numbers (axle and tire ratings, etc) won't matter. Let us know what you find out.

[kmagnum425]

So I called the ford dealer where I bought the truck. Since the truck did not come with the fifth wheel prep package it door sticker says 2230lbs. Had it come with the fifth wheel prep package the sticker would say 3880, which puts me 500lbs under since I added the fifth wheel package after the fact. So at the end of the day, the payload sticker states weights based on stock configuration.

I want to be safe for sure, thus the questions and research. Also, FYI the truck maxes out at over 4k payload if it were a long bed.

Thanks for all the advice/comments and hope this thread helps others....