TT vs 5er safety

[Overtaxed]

I just read a thread where a poster said he got a 38' TT because a 5er of that length would put him over payload capacity. That post started me thinking, what's actually safer here? Let's take 2 relatively similar trailers, both 40' long, both 15K, one a 5er that puts you overweight on the truck and another a TT that keeps you "in spec" for the truck. Which would you rather tow? Which would you feel safer towing?

I know the answer for me; give me the overweight 5er any day of the week (as long as we're talking "reasonable" overweight here, not a 44' toy hauler on a 150!). Let's say a 5er that's 14K GVWR (~2.5K pin weight, which is going to be over for most 250 class trucks) vs a TT that's the same GVWR. If both weigh about the same, which do you think would be safer? I remember a lot of threads in the past saying "get a TT instead" (not here, elsewhere), but, to me, I'm really not sure you've increased safety at all in that situation. I've towed plenty of trailers in my day, and I've had plenty of hairy experiences with trailers. Once I moved to goosenecks/5er's, I've had exactly 0 "hair" from any trailer, even when overloading a 250 with a 351M.

I'm just not sure the advise makes sense to me. Suddenly your truck can tow more by using a less stable/secure connection? If anything, I'd think that airbags or some other "beef up the truck" would be safer (forgetting about legalities here).

[backtrack2015]

I'd feel safer with the 5er for sure (provided neither exceeded my truck's axle ratings).

[Overtaxed]

I'd feel safer with the 5er for sure (provided neither exceeded my truck's axle ratings).

Yeah, probably should have mentioned that. I wouldn't exceed tire or axle ratings, if I were over on those, I think a TT might be safer (might, depending on how far over). The advice given though is usually about payload (GVWR) though, and I'd feel safer going over payload with a 5er than I would towing a monster TT with the same truck. Sounds like you are the same. I'm just not sure we're doing anyone a favor by saying "Your 250 is too small for that 10K 5er, but you can tow a 10K TT just fine". Yes, I know that's the "by the numbers" answer, but I also contend it doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Jefferson Beifuss]

We need to be very careful not to let any readers have the impression that it is OK under any circumstances to travel over payload for a few very important reasons. One, is not just that your tires and axles are not rated for those excessive loads, but neither are your brakes, suspension, stabilizers, cooling systems, just to name a few. And, yes, we can get into that whole, there's little difference between my F250 and your F350, but please understand one very important thing. IF you are ever involved in an accident with your overloaded rig and an injury is involved, I can assure you the attorney will find out that your rig is overloaded and that fact will enter into the trial as a matter of evidence into who is at fault. Please keep that in mind from someone who spent way too many years in that business before retiring.

[Overtaxed]

Legally, I agree with you, there's some potential liability that's introduced. But that's not my question, the question is "what is safer"? I cringe all the time when I see big TT's behind something like a 150 rolling down the highway. Legal? Probably, because there's so little weight on the truck. Safe? Well, I won't drive next to them, that's for sure. I realize that F150 towing a monster TT might be legal where a 250 towing an equally heavy 5er is probably not legal (but if it was a 350 it would be, and, since they are nearly identical...), but, which is safer? The 250 at 500 over payload (but below what a SRW 350 is rated for) or a 150 with a monster TT that's within spec?

[WhittleBurner]

Legally, I agree with you, there's some potential liability that's introduced. But that's not my question, the question is "what is safer"? I cringe all the time when I see big TT's behind something like a 150 rolling down the highway. Legal? Probably, because there's so little weight on the truck. Safe? Well, I won't drive next to them, that's for sure. I realize that F150 towing a monster TT might be legal where a 250 towing an equally heavy 5er is probably not legal (but if it was a 350 it would be, and, since they are nearly identical...), but, which is safer? The 250 at 500 over payload (but below what a SRW 350 is rated for) or a 150 with a monster TT that's within spec?

I don't think I have ever seen a scenario like you are suggesting. A tt same length and width towed by the same truck that the tt would be withen spec and not the 5th wheel. My impression has always been the opposite the 5thh wheel would stay under the ratings easier than the tt. With the way the 5th hooks up and the 5th wheel having the weight more balanced over both axles of the truck.

[Jerryr]

I went from a F-150 towing an Imagine 2800BH to a F-350 Towing a Reflection 337RLS 5th wheel. It’s a night a day difference and as far as I’m concerned TT vs 5th wheel, 5th wheel wins hands down.

My BIKs BIL, a recently retired NYC cop bought a brand new F-150 and a new 32 foot travel trailer and decided to cross the country with it. The trailer sway caused him to flip the trailer and truck on the first trip, totaling both and putting him and his wife in the hospital. That was the end of their camping attempt.

[Overtaxed]

I don't think I have ever seen a scenario like you are suggesting. A tt same length and width towed by the same truck that the tt would be withen spec and not the 5th wheel. My impression has always been the opposite the 5thh wheel would stay under the ratings easier than the tt. With the way the 5th hooks up and the 5th wheel having the weight more balanced over both axles of the truck.

Unfortunately, while common sense would dictate what you just said, that's not the case. 5er's exceed payload capacity very rapidly on 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks because they balance the weight over the axles, which pushes very quickly into the "illegal" or overweight category for many pickup trucks out there. I'd hazard a guess and say that most 250 class pickups with anything large hooked up on a 5'er connection are overweight, where, the reverse is not true, you'd have to really work to get a conventional pull trailer overweight on a 250. It's got tons of towing capacity, just not the payload.

But, no need to speculate, here are 2 RVs:

https://www.granddesignrv.com/showro...s/303rls#specs
5er, 12K GVWR, 1725lbs on the pin, 32ft long
https://www.granddesignrv.com/showro...rplans/315rlts
TT, 11,295GVWR, 1000lbs on the ball, 38ft long

That are somewhat similar so I think it's a somewhat fair comparison. It's also a good one because the 303, with a stated 1725 pin weight, would probably put, when loaded, about 2K in the bed of a pickup truck, putting something like my 2019 F250 over the limit (GVWR) when both it and the truck were loaded for travel. The advice I often see is "No, you'll be over limits on your 250 so, instead of the 303, get something like a 315 instead", suggesting that a TT will be safer than the 5er because the 5er is over the GVWR limits.

That's what I take issue with; would a 315 behind a 250 be safer than a 303 attached to a 5er hitch in the bed? IMHO, the answer is "absolutely not". Yes, it will clearly be "legal" to tow the 315, that's way below the conventional tow rating of a 250, and will likely be "illegal" on the 303 because you stand a good chance of exceeding GVWR (especially if you have a diesel engine). But the 5th wheel connection is just SO much better in basically every respect, weight loading, tracking, sway control, just basic "control".. I can't see the "get a TT instead" as good advice in this type of situation. Pull behind/tag along isn't a bad connection, but there's a reason that every semi out there is using a 5er style connection; simply put, it's a better way to link two vehicles together to go down the road, especially if there's significant weight or size involved (which our rigs have both!).

Edited to add: Even funnier, often times the advice you'll see about this is "well, just get the 250 with a gas engine instead". Sure, that raises your payload capacity by removing some mass from the engine bay, but.. It also gives up exhaust braking!?! If you're going to be towing in the mountains with anything large behind you, you WANT an exhaust brake!! This is just another example of where "guiding to the stickers" gets into crazy territory; yeah, give up the engine that can best control a huge load to.. Ugh, increase the load you can tow?! Which gets even crazier when you think about WHERE the load is from a diesel vs gas engine. It's almost entirely on the front axle! So, how does putting the best towing engine in with supplementary braking that never overheats which sits almost entirely over the front axle reduce what I can put on the back axle and tow?? And some people may say "it's the brakes, it's designed only to brake up to GVWR" which, would almost be a sensible answer until you realize that adding that heavy engine also gets you more brakes, in fact, a TON more brake when in the situation where your specifically likely to need "more brake", going downhill with a heavy load behind you.


It really stinks, IMHO, that we've made GVWR and towing capacity into a game of "regulation beating" instead of a way to accurately assess what your vehicle can do safely. A 250 that has less payload than a 150 makes no sense at all from a mechanical perspective, the only reason my old truck was so payload limited is because it was designed to "beat" the regulations for vehicles over 10K GVWR. The 250, although immensely popular, is a truck that really shouldn't even be sold outside of the few (and I happen to live in one) markets where a 350 is close to double the cost to register. And a 450 with less payload than a 350 also makes no sense at all mechanically, I've seen recommendations away from the 450 on forums because "You can carry more in a 350 DRW". Yes, technically, they are right, because a 350 and 450 are both 14K GVWR vehicles, you "can" carry more in a 350DRW. But how does that make the slightest bit of sense?! So, we're going to use a heavier axle, put on tires with a higher load capacity, put on bigger brakes to go with it and.. Tada! With those upgrades, you can.. Carry less?! That makes no sense at all, just like a 150 having more payload than a 250 makes no sense at all.

Summing up, I kind of see a lot of the discussions around this the same way. "No, you can't haul that 12K 5er, so, instead, get a 12K TT", similar to "Nope, that's overweight for your 450, get a 350 instead". Ugh, what? How did that improve the situation? IMHO, it doesn't/didn't, the only safety gained in either of those statements is safety from "the law" and his RV/truck weighing scales. Because I sure don't think that towing a huge TT behind a truck is somehow safer than a comparably sided 5er behind the same truck. That makes about as much sense as "just take the front brakes off your 450; then you'll have more payload available". Technically correct, right?

[WhittleBurner]

Unfortunately, while common sense would dictate what you just said, that's not the case. 5er's exceed payload capacity very rapidly on 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks because they balance the weight over the axles, which pushes very quickly into the "illegal" or overweight category for many pickup trucks out there. I'd hazard a guess and say that most 250 class pickups with anything large hooked up on a 5'er connection are overweight, where, the reverse is not true, you'd have to really work to get a conventional pull trailer overweight on a 250. It's got tons of towing capacity, just not the payload.

But, no need to speculate, here are 2 RVs:

https://www.granddesignrv.com/showro...s/303rls#specs
5er, 12K GVWR, 1725lbs on the pin, 32ft long
https://www.granddesignrv.com/showro...rplans/315rlts
TT, 11,295GVWR, 1000lbs on the ball, 38ft long

That are somewhat similar so I think it's a somewhat fair comparison. It's also a good one because the 303, with a stated 1725 pin weight, would probably put, when loaded, about 2K in the bed of a pickup truck, putting something like my 2019 F250 over the limit (GVWR) when both it and the truck were loaded for travel. The advice I often see is "No, you'll be over limits on your 250 so, instead of the 303, get something like a 315 instead", suggesting that a TT will be safer than the 5er because the 5er is over the GVWR limits.

That's what I take issue with; would a 315 behind a 250 be safer than a 303 attached to a 5er hitch in the bed? IMHO, the answer is "absolutely not". Yes, it will clearly be "legal" to tow the 315, that's way below the conventional tow rating of a 250, and will likely be "illegal" on the 303 because you stand a good chance of exceeding GVWR (especially if you have a diesel engine). But the 5th wheel connection is just SO much better in basically every respect, weight loading, tracking, sway control, just basic "control".. I can't see the "get a TT instead" as good advice in this type of situation. Pull behind/tag along isn't a bad connection, but there's a reason that every semi out there is using a 5er style connection; simply put, it's a better way to link two vehicles together to go down the road, especially if there's significant weight or size involved (which our rigs have both!).

Edited to add: Even funnier, often times the advice you'll see about this is "well, just get the 250 with a gas engine instead". Sure, that raises your payload capacity by removing some mass from the engine bay, but.. It also gives up exhaust braking!?! If you're going to be towing in the mountains with anything large behind you, you WANT an exhaust brake!! This is just another example of where "guiding to the stickers" gets into crazy territory; yeah, give up the engine that can best control a huge load to.. Ugh, increase the load you can tow?! Which gets even crazier when you think about WHERE the load is from a diesel vs gas engine. It's almost entirely on the front axle! So, how does putting the best towing engine in with supplementary braking that never overheats which sits almost entirely over the front axle reduce what I can put on the back axle and tow?? And some people may say "it's the brakes, it's designed only to brake up to GVWR" which, would almost be a sensible answer until you realize that adding that heavy engine also gets you more brakes, in fact, a TON more brake when in the situation where your specifically likely to need "more brake", going downhill with a heavy load behind you.


It really stinks, IMHO, that we've made GVWR and towing capacity into a game of "regulation beating" instead of a way to accurately assess what your vehicle can do safely. A 250 that has less payload than a 150 makes no sense at all from a mechanical perspective, the only reason my old truck was so payload limited is because it was designed to "beat" the regulations for vehicles over 10K GVWR. The 250, although immensely popular, is a truck that really shouldn't even be sold outside of the few (and I happen to live in one) markets where a 350 is close to double the cost to register. And a 450 with less payload than a 350 also makes no sense at all mechanically, I've seen recommendations away from the 450 on forums because "You can carry more in a 350 DRW". Yes, technically, they are right, because a 350 and 450 are both 14K GVWR vehicles, you "can" carry more in a 350DRW. But how does that make the slightest bit of sense?! So, we're going to use a heavier axle, put on tires with a higher load capacity, put on bigger brakes to go with it and.. Tada! With those upgrades, you can.. Carry less?! That makes no sense at all, just like a 150 having more payload than a 250 makes no sense at all.

Summing up, I kind of see a lot of the discussions around this the same way. "No, you can't haul that 12K 5er, so, instead, get a 12K TT", similar to "Nope, that's overweight for your 450, get a 350 instead". Ugh, what? How did that improve the situation? IMHO, it doesn't/didn't, the only safety gained in either of those statements is safety from "the law" and his RV/truck weighing scales. Because I sure don't think that towing a huge TT behind a truck is somehow safer than a comparably sided 5er behind the same truck. That makes about as much sense as "just take the front brakes off your 450; then you'll have more payload available". Technically correct, right?

I stand corrected. That just doesn't seem right.

[Overtaxed]

I stand corrected. That just doesn't seem right.

Your far more polite about it then I was when it was first pointed out to me. I think my general response was "THERE'S NO F***IGN way that's right".

And your right! It doesn't "seem right" because it's not right. It's all contortions that people are forced into by "limits" that make no sense at all and/or aren't at all based on mechanical capacity but instead of "hitting classifications". It does none of us any good. Telling someone to get a TT instead of 5er to "hit the numbers" makes nobody any safer. Just like the advice I got when I had an overweight 250 was "well, get a 350 SRW". Yes, that would have "hit the numbers" but.. If a 250 can't do it safely, guess what? Neither can a 350 SRW because, part for part, they are functionally identical with the exception of an overload spring (which is easily added or bettered by airbags). You're not buying safety, you're buying "legal", perhaps at the expense of safety (certainly, IMHO, in the case like I used to illustrate above).

The real kicker was, when going to dealers to trade in my (brand new!!) F250 for a F450, I got a ton of "you know the 350DRW can tow more than a 450, right?" from dealers. Now, of course, this is because they had 350s they wanted to unload or no 450s, but, you know what? They're right! I can't argue that, factually, they are right. Makes no sense at all, and, again, you're actually making yourself less safe in the name of "legal" (if you had a situation where you'd be over payload on a 450 but under on a 350DRW, for example), but.. They're right, a 350DRW can legally haul more in the bed than a 450. How? Well, obviously, you just downsize the brakes and take off the commercial tires, and, viola! Suddenly you can haul more. :0