Classes and de-rates are so ridiculous

[Walaby]

Somehow, in the towing world, it's gotten all twisted around. The above argument of 350 vs 450 is a perfect example of the sticker not even being relevant to the actual capability of the vehicle.

It got all twisted around in the towing world, partially because people use scare tactics on the uninformed. "If you get in a wreck, the lawyers will sweep up every scrap of metal at the accident site, weigh it, and sue the pants off you". Those of us that do our research know better, but the ill-informed take it for gospel because they read it on the inter-web. And at an RV site to boot, so it must be right.

The auto manufacturers all try to one-up each other, so all they have to do is make a few small changes and convince the legal and engineering big heads to change the sticker, and voila, instant presto, added payload. Reminds me of those credit commercials - call here and get an instant 60 point increase in your credit score. Puhleeese.

Mike

[FT4NOW]

It got all twisted around in the towing world, partially because people use scare tactics on the uninformed. "If you get in a wreck, the lawyers will sweep up every scrap of metal at the accident site, weigh it, and sue the pants off you". Those of us that do our research know better, but the ill-informed take it for gospel because they read it on the inter-web. And at an RV site to boot, so it must be right.

The auto manufacturers all try to one-up each other, so all they have to do is make a few small changes and convince the legal and engineering big heads to change the sticker, and voila, instant presto, added payload. Reminds me of those credit commercials - call here and get an instant 60 point increase in your credit score. Puhleeese.

Mike

I have yet to hear someone's personal experience of being sued or similar because they were over their ratings. I'm not talking about my friend Bob's uncle's co-worker type stories, but an actual personal experience.

"If it's on the internet, it must be true" -Abe Lincoln

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Walaby]

I have yet to hear someone's personal experience of being sued or similar because they were over their ratings. I'm not talking about my friend Bob's uncle's co-worker type stories, but an actual personal experience.

"If it's on the internet, it must be true" -Abe Lincoln

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Exactly. Whenever anyone asks for actual experience,... crickets.

Mike

[CWSWine]

I listened to the Forum Lawyers say that you go to jail running overloaded and then I listen to all the Legal Experts state that never been a case of someone being sued over being overweight is a factor. So, I decided to contact an injury lawyer and pay for an hour of his time and see what his advice was. First, he used the example of a 3/4 ton truck pulling a 5er is a red flag in an accident investigation. He also new about payloads and how to check vins on the truck and RV to get basic weights. He also said most lawyers won't allowed his client to make to court being overweight because a jury can be a crapshoot and 99 percent are settled out of court. A few months later I was in working in my store and a customer that is a lawyer overheard me talk to a friend about RV and gave me friendly advice about not towing overweight and he also used the example of the 3/4 ton towing a 5er. I ask where he heard about the 3/4 ton and 5er and he said there have been several right ups in legal magazines about baby boomers and towing overweight. I also learned it would be very difficult to put someone is jail but easy to do a settlement for a lot more than you normally get if they can prove you over weight. I was also told to carry an umbrella policy since an RV can cause a lot of damage in an accident that could exceed your policy limits and keep a cat scale ticket.

I sat on jury member on a trial that a truck rear-ended a car and pushed it into the intersection and oncoming traffic and the award was huge. Over 50% of the blame was put on a truck that had a lift and large tires. I even had the case/doc number and I couldn't find out any information on the internet about the case. my wife and me had a out of court settlement and part of the terms were not to disclose what the terms was.

There a hundreds of ADs say "If you been in an accident call 555-5555 and get your huge settlement". Just beware! We have several lawyers that only do traffic accidents in town and they have really nice homes but I don't read about any cases or settlements in newspaper or the internet.

[TerryH]

I listened to the Forum Lawyers say that you go to jail running overloaded and then I listen to all the Legal Experts state that never been a case of someone being sued over being overweight is a factor. So, I decided to contact an injury lawyer and pay for an hour of his time and see what his advice was. First, he used the example of a 3/4 ton truck pulling a 5er is a red flag in an accident investigation. He also new about payloads and how to check vins on the truck and RV to get basic weights. He also said most lawyers won't be allowed his client to make to court being overweight because a jury can be a crapshoot and 99 percent are settled out of court. A few months later I was in working in my store and a customer that is a lawyer overheard me talk to a friend about RV and gave me friendly advice about not towing overweight and he also used the example of the 3/4 ton towing a 5er. I ask where he heard about the 3/4 ton and 5er and he said there have been several right ups is legal magazines about baby boomers and towing overweight. I also learned it would be very difficult to put someone is jail but easy to do a settlement for a lot more than you normally get if they can prove you over weight. I was also told to carry an umbrella policy since an RV can cause a lot of damage in an accident that could exceed your policy limits and keep a cat scale ticket.

I sat on jury member on a trial that a truck rear-ended a car and pushed it into the intersection and oncoming traffic and the award was huge. Over 50% of the blame was put on a truck that had a lift and large tires. I even had the case/doc number and I couldn't find out any information on the internet about the case.

There a hundred of ADs say "If you been in an accident call 555-5555 and get your huge settlement". Just beware!

I work for a good sized group of collision repair centers. Been on one side or the other of this industry for 40 years. 20 years in the shop, 15 on the insurance side, and now back in the shop again. It used to be about fixing cars. Now mostly about not getting sued for fixing cars. We have dedicated people in each of our shops that are responsible for pulling every OE procedure and documenting how we did everything. It's the world we live in. Let's sue everybody for whatever and see what sticks to the wall. Guarantee you that 10 years down the road it will be "If you have respiratory issues caused by wearing a mask call us for free money" or something similar. It's truly a pitiful situation.

[TheLexx]

I'll add my two cents here since I've been involved in a few threads about what constitutes a legal payload. The fact of the matter is modern trucks are built to actually handle more payload than what's on the yellow sticker. But that doesn't make it legal because the legal payload is determined by the yellow sticker and the GVWR that you registered the vehicle at.

In my case, my F450 has front axle rating of 6600 lbs and a rear axle rating of 9900 lbs for a total of 16,500 lbs. My tires are rated at 3950 lbs each. I have 4 in the back and two in front so the capacity for the tires far exceeds any potential load I might carry.

Curb weight of the truck at the CAT scales with a full tank of gas was 9450 lbs. That means my truck should have a payload capacity of 7050 lbs.

However my yellow payload sticker states 4583 lbs and my truck is registered at a GVWR of 14,000 lbs. 14,000 - 9450 gives you 4550, which is just a few lbs off of the yellow sticker rating of 4583 lbs. This is my LEGAL payload.

Technically the truck is able to carry 7050 lbs based on my axle ratings less the actual curb weight of the truck. But because I'm registered at 14k lbs GVWR, that's the limit of my payload plus the curb weight.

So for those that de-rate their truck at registration time, if you're towing with a pin weight that's over your yellow sticker, you're out of compliance with the law. That doesn't necessarily mean you are unsafe, so long as your axle ratings less the actual curb weight gives you a capacity number above the actual weight of passengers, gear and pin weight.

What are the legal implications? I'm not an attorney, but it would seem that anything out of compliance allows opposing attorneys to assign more liability.

[Roll With The Changes]

It is posts like this one that lead to the mass carnage that I see on the road every day. It is common knowledge that things like math, physics, logic and personal accountability always lead to disaster. The only way to stay safe is to do exactly what we are told by the government and obey without question the stickers and placards that their policies generate. To do otherwise is a clear indication that you are a horrible human being.

Well said... I'm a horrible human being...

When I was a young pilot one of my role models was being grilled by the FAA about the lack of weight and balance data for his helicopter. The FAA inspector asked how he determined if the helicopter was within limits. Without missing a beat, he said, "I pick it up and see what it feels like." Obviously, the fine was significant. That was years ago, and I was as shocked as everyone else that an experienced pilot could be so cavalier about something so basic and important. Now I am teaching that to the young pilots that look up to me.

I will trust the feeling in my ********** more than any sticker (in the aviation world they call them placards).

I have also learned that if I screw up, I get sued. If I do everything right, I get sued anyway. So fear of being sued is not a factor in my decisions about what is right or wrong.

[Overtaxed]

I have also learned that if I screw up, I get sued. If I do everything right, I get sued anyway. So fear of being sued is not a factor in my decisions about what is right or wrong.

That's the thing that always gets me with the "you'll get sued" argument. First off, I'm insured for that, and 2nd, does anyone for one second think that if I'm towing with a 450 and cause an accident I'm NOT gonna get sued? Of course I am. People get all "CSI" on this, "Oh man, they'll put your trailer back together from pieces at the scene to see if you were overweight", and, while MAYBE that has happened, most of the time, it's abundantly clear what caused an accident. Someone sideswiped someone else. Someone rear ended someone else. No 3D cameras and months of computer time necessary, it's clear what caused the accident.

Now, in a fatality, if blame was REALLY at question (they couldn't figure it out from the witnesses/lie of the cars on the road/debris trail/etc) I suppose maybe you'll get a cop out there with the dustbuster picking up pieces to weigh it and see if you were over at the time of the accident. It's just kind of funny to me that people go on endlessly about the "legal implications" of towing over when there are probably 100 things you did on a drive today that are equally illegal and would place you at fault in an "iffy" accident. Sure, being "over" is another one, but you're not gonna get rear ended at a stop light towing a 40ft RV with a Ford Ranger and have the guy sue you for being overweight (and win). It's got nothing to do with the cause of the accident, and in most cases, it doesn't.

Even if it DOES, lets say you're coming down a hill, lose the brakes and rear end a school bus.. Guess what? Your at fault. In a Ranger or a semi, you're at fault and your insurance will be paying. Might they be able to prove more negligence by towing over? IDK, I guess, just like they might be able to prove "more negligence" if they find your brake rotors are overly worn. Just way too much to worry about then to try to imagine all the situations where I might be sued and lose. Which might sound funny from someone who traded a 2019 250 for a 2019 450. But it wasn't to get "in the numbers" going from a 250 to a 350 SRW would have done that for me. It was to get a better towing experience and be safer for myself, my family and those around me. Adding another set of wheels in the back, IMHO, absolutely does that. Changing the sticker, IMHO, does nothing in 99.99% of the situations you might find yourself in while towing an RV.

[frank4711]

I certainly agree these 250/450 trucks are "derated" , I think Ford has started putting 11000 or 11500 GVWR on their 250, so they are now showing much better payload . I think everybody's "axle payload" is better than the yellow sticker. When I was shopping and comparing Ram 2500 vs 3500 SRW both trucks curb weight was almost identical, the difference, as it had been noted is coil rear vs leaf and a smaller axles. I have to disagree with the many that argue the 2500 is the same truck as the 3500, it is not. But the notion that my Ram SRW 3500 with a payload of 4394 is anywhere near the capacity of the F450 is just silly. later Frank

[Rgkeaney]

IWhen I was shopping and comparing Ram 2500 vs 3500 SRW both trucks curb weight was almost identical, the difference, as it had been noted is coil rear vs leaf and a smaller axles. Frank

Curious on this statement. Are you talking different axels or different axel ratios.

I ask because this is from Pickup trucks.com on comparisons between 2500 and 3500 in Ram.

“Interestingly, Ram uses the same front and rear axles for everything in the 2500 and 3500 trucks, except the dual-rear-wheel applications where the max-torque Cummins is available. Similar to Chevrolet, the front is an AAM with a 9.25-inch ring gear and the rear axle is an AAM with an 11.5-inch ring gear. The Ram 2500 Power Wagon has locking front and rear axles that are not available on any other Ram application. The axle ratios available for 2500 models and single-rear-wheel 3500s are 3.73:1 and 4.10:1 for gas and 3.42:1 for the Cummins turbo-diesel.”

Curious if I am missing something.


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