Classes and de-rates are so ridiculous

[Overtaxed]

Responding to another poster I pulled up the new 2020 guide from Ford to grab some info for the thread. I was looking through the numbers and happened on this gem:

F350 SRW 4X4, 12,400 GVWR, crew cab Max Payload - 4,580
F450 DRW 4X4, 14,000 GVWR, crew cab Max Payload - 5,320

This is why people have no respect for "the stickers", it really is. So, you're telling me Ford, if I go from truck tires to full commercial tires (19.5s) that have +50% capacity per tire or so, then, on top of that, I add another pair of these heavier tires on the back to better support the load, and then, on top of all that, I add in higher gearing, heavier rims, and most importantly, heavier brakes, I gain a little over 700 lbs of payload?

Hmmm.. OK then, well, let's just say, I'm a wee skeptical of that. What's actually going on here? Well, the same thing that's going on with the F250 vs the F350, the F450 is "de-rated" to fit in the 14K class. What's the real rating? Well, thankfully, Ford provides that in the chassis cab, you can get a F450 chassis with a 16,500 GVWR, which, as expected, takes the payload through the roof, now you're looking at payload in the 8-9K range for a F450, which is probably a lot more "the right number" than what's printed on the magical "sticker" on my 450.

This should really be illegal, it encourages a complete lack of respect for "the numbers" because it's obvious to anyone with even the slightest examination that "the numbers" are make believe.


https://media.ford.com/content/dam/f...Tech-Specs.pdf

[Txfivver]

I agree Overtaxed, the sticker ratings on the 450 are ridiculous. It's a shame too because because the 450 is such an awesome tow vehicle yet some people won't buy one because they think it carries less! I know for a fact coming from a '19 F350 to a '20
F450 that the 450 is way more capable. When I dropped my Solitude's 3900 pound pin on the 350 is would sag a good 3-4 inches and sit below level in the back. Same weight drops the 450 about 2 inches and it still sits higher in the back than the front, and its not even on the overload spring!
Same springs etc? I don't think so. The people that only go by the sticker payload are missing out on the ultimate tow vehicle, except for @Splatts Volvo of course. Lol

[Overtaxed]

I agree Overtaxed, the sticker ratings on the 450 are ridiculous. It's a shame too because because the 450 is such an awesome tow vehicle yet some people won't buy one because they think it carries less! I know for a fact coming from a '19 F350 to a '20

I've seen that advice quite often too; "If you want to carry more, get a 350". Which, as you correctly point out, is ridiculous. The lack of honesty/transparency in the ratings is actually to the point of creating dangerous situations, where people do silly things like buy a 350 instead of a 450 because it can "haul more". Ugh, what?

Or, for the really good one here. A F150 stripper truck that can haul more in the bed than a F250 diesel (of course, with a 9.9K derate). Ugh, what? How on earth is it that even legal? Nothing wrong (I assume) with the rating on a F150, but the 250, with the de-rate, that really shouldn't be allowable. Not if we're going to use the stickers as a guideline for "what's safe" mechanically.

IMHO, if they want to persist this crazy "class" system in trucks, they should put 2 plates on there. What your truck can haul based on class, and what your truck can haul based on mechanical limits. Because the 2 numbers, in at least some cases, are WAY off from one another. The real problem with that is that people lose all respect for the numbers, "yeah, my F250 is only rated for 2K in the bed, but we all know that's a bulls*8t number, so bring that 43ft 19K Raptor on over here". Well, yes, the number is BS, but.. It's probably beyond mechanical limits to haul a triple axle Raptor. Problem is, nobody knows! All we do know is that "number of the door is bulls**t", not necessarily what that number SHOULD be. And it's only a BS number in some cases, a SRW 350, for example, I think that the number on the door is probably basically the mechanical limits number, it's not a derated truck. 450 is BS, 250 is BS, for sure, on both of them. 150 I think is probably, again, pretty much mechanical limits.

It's so stupid.

[Rgkeaney]

I agree that these numbers are fictitious and manipulated for really marketing purposes. The ability to sell same, or very similar vehicles for more money.

The 2016 ram 2500 vs 3500 SRW 4x4 trucks have significantly different payload ratings with only one difference in the build out of the truck. That is rear leaf springs vs rear coil springs. And an “OPTION” for different transmission and gearing. Granted, the springs could significantly affect payload if those coil springs on the 2500 are significantly compressed. I run almost 1000lbs over my payload capacity on the 2500 yet the rig is level with significant room for more coil compression. I could move to a 3500 and get leaf springs and “more payload” and be below payload capacity. But why???? Because the magical yellow sticker says so. Hence more money for Ram! Not buying it.

Dual rear wheel gives great stability for sure, but this concept of payload is generally a hoax and a marketing ploy. IMHO. Many, if not most, will disagree with me.


+++++++++++++++++++
2016 Ram 2500 Cummins
Andersen ultimate
2020 GD 31MB
Champion dual fuel 3500 generator
Steadyfast stabilizers
Dinosaur electronics ignitor board
MicroAir Easy-Start

[Rapid1]

I agree with all of the above. The funny part here is how when it comes to 350 vs 450, the numbers are all wrong but somehow, folks that have a 250 have to buy a new truck because the yellow sticker sticker numbers are right on and its not enough truck. When it comes to the 450, people are missing out on a more capable tow vehicle because of the yellow sticker. LOL

There are two stickers...the white one tells the actual axle rating (oem tire rating) and with that, along with the GCWR rating, you can get the actual capability of the truck, regardless of what the badge on the fender says. Further research will also give actual hardware ratings of the axles and capabilities can be increased by upgrading the weak links in the system.
To say that vehicle's towing capabilities cannot be improved upon because of a sticker is simply ignoring physics.

As has been pointed out here, the yellow sticker really has little bearing on the truck's capabilities. It exists for other reasons, by the NHTSA, which I have pointed out and linked directly to, long ago. On the NHTSA website, they call it a tire safety label. Look it up. They also explain why it came to be and is required on all vehicles, not just for towing.
Somehow, in the towing world, it's gotten all twisted around. The above argument of 350 vs 450 is a perfect example of the sticker not even being relevant to the actual capability of the vehicle.

[cookinwitdiesel]

The F-450 PICKUP is NOT COMPARABLE to the F-450 Chassis Cab. The frame and springs in the back are not similar at all. The frame under the cab is the same for both but the frame behind the cab is the F-350 frame on the F-450 pickup. The spring pack is also way smaller. Is the F-450 pickup capable of more than 14k gvwr, almost certainly, but it is not made for 16500 at all.

I would imagine that the vehicle class ratings exist to serve tax and insurance purposes, and possibly licensing/certification as well.

[JeffD68]

It is posts like this one that lead to the mass carnage that I see on the road every day. It is common knowledge that things like math, physics, logic and personal accountability always lead to disaster. The only way to stay safe is to do exactly what we are told by the government and obey without question the stickers and placards that their policies generate. To do otherwise is a clear indication that you are a horrible human being.

[TerryH]

I've been totally frustrated with the listed ratings on my 2 trucks. 2011 Ram 1500 crew cab 2WD has a rating of 10,200. My 1996 CCLB C3500 dually has a rating of 10,000. I've towed 9k with both and there is zero comparison in how the dually handles it compared to the Ram. The dually is head and shoulders above the Ram in every way. It's a ridiculous game.

[Overtaxed]

I've been totally frustrated with the listed ratings on my 2 trucks. 2011 Ram 1500 crew cab 2WD has a rating of 10,200. My 1996 CCLB C3500 dually has a rating of 10,000. I've towed 9k with both and there is zero comparison in how the dually handles it compared to the Ram. The dually is head and shoulders above the Ram in every way. It's a ridiculous game.

It really is ridiculous. If you're just going to make up numbers, how about, well.. Don't. Just don't make anything up and let us decide based on the ratings of the components what it can handle. This "class leading" craziness is, just that, craziness. I'd much prefer "we tested it to 15K, components should be able to take 25K, good luck/have fun".

[TheLexx]

Spot on. The F450 Chassis Cab in the back is extra heavy duty and is clearly different from the pickup version. The brochure for the Chassis Cab states the payload is 9850 lbs. Also the 6.7 motor is de-rated to less HP and torque in favor of longevity. It's just a different animal.

Actually my 2017 F450 only has a payload of 4583 lbs because it's so loaded up with equipment including the Ford/Reese 27.5 fifth wheel hitch. However if you go by the axle ratings the payload is (the two axle capacities) 15,900 - (weight of truck on CAT scale) 9450 lbs = 6450 lbs. Is this my true payload capacity?

The OEM Continental commercial tires have load capacities of 3970 lbs each, so four of them on the rear axles alone would give me 15,880 lbs of capacity.

The F-450 PICKUP is NOT COMPARABLE to the F-450 Chassis Cab. The frame and springs in the back are not similar at all. The frame under the cab is the same for both but the frame behind the cab is the F-350 frame on the F-450 pickup. The spring pack is also way smaller. Is the F-450 pickup capable of more than 14k gvwr, almost certainly, but it is not made for 16500 at all.

I would imagine that the vehicle class ratings exist to serve tax and insurance purposes, and possibly licensing/certification as well.