All New Electric Ford F150 Shown Towing

[TheLexx]

All this talk about 1.21 gigawatt batteries. Where are we gonna get all that power from? Here in Calif we can't even keep the lights on!

[SolarPoweredRV]

The tank turn idea is awesome! Kind of like a skid steer, really neat!

The Rivian tops out at 180KWH though, so, while perhaps interesting for short hops, you'd be lucky to get much over 100 miles between charges towing a 5er. When we start seeing 500-1000KWH pickup trucks, then, as I discussed above, we're talking about something that might broadly be interesting to RV'ers. Until then, these things are perhaps great around town, and if you only do a repeatable short tow with your rig, might work for you, but it's nowhere near where it needs to be for many of us. Again, this isn't me hating on EV's, in fact, I like them a lot and helped a friend build one years ago, it was a blast and acceleration was mind boggling! This is me injecting "math" into the discussion and relating it to what it takes, from an energy point of view, to pull a 15-20K box down the road. And, on that front, is where EV's have a big issue; we can either put in massive batteries (like the semi), we can stop every 100-200 miles for quite awhile to charge, or we can put a generator on board. But it is simple math, there are ~35KW/h in a gallon of diesel fuel, with engine efficiency figured in, you wind up around 12-15KW/h per gallon. So, to simulate the 40 gallon gas tank I have in my F450, you need around 600MWH of battery capacity. Which, of course, is why the Tesla semi has 500 and 1000 KWH options available. Math is fun.

So, even if a Rivian could haul the rig, with 180KWH battery, you've basically got, at best, the equivalent range of my truck with 1/2 a tank (20 gallons of diesel). 150 miles before the light comes on, 190 or so to bone dry.

Very short version: This is a battery capacity discussion. Until we get to 500-1000 KWHs on board, you're not going far between charges with an EV towing a RV. And once we do get to 1000 KWH's on board, then we have the logistics of pulling down the same amount of power a typical house uses in a month in <1hr. Sure, it's simple to charge 1 truck at 1,000KW/hr, not at all simple to charge 100's at that speed, you're talking "substation level" power at that point. Add in even more, you're talking "power plant" levels of consumption.

To try to get this in perspective, let's think of a busy truck stop with 30-40 lanes for refueling. Let's say those lanes can service a little over 2 trucks per hour (to make math easy) and therefore, can refuel 100 trucks in 1 hour. If those trucks were all electric tomorrow, AND every diesel truck stop also had MW level chargers, well, what's the math look like? Well, to refuel 100 trucks in 1 hour, you'll need 100MW of electric. How much electric is that? I think this is where people just can't fathom the scale required here, so, let's relate it to something more familiar. A nuclear reactor is typically between 500 and 1000MW. So, fun way to look at it, 500 Tesla semis pulling down 1MW of power over a 1 hour "fill up" basically take the entire capacity of a nuclear reactor. Or, put another way, instead of 10,000 gallon diesel tanks under the ground in the gas station, they need a build a nuclear reactor and share it across a few gas stations to deal with the pull of the semis.

The Rivian has a published range of 400+ miles and a towing capacity of 11,000 lbs, additionally, Rivian has publicly stated that the range is reduced by 50% when towing. Consequently, everyone with a 11,000 lb RV (or less), be it a Travel Trailer, or a 1/2 ton towable 5th wheel, now has an Electric Tow Vehicle option (once production begins).

Granted, those of us who have heaver 5th Wheels and Super Bladders that last for 600 miles will be left out for now, but, Elon is working on new battery technology that can eventually help us all.

As far as being able to charge all those Semis and Big Trucks required for our large RVs, there will be battery banks attached to the charging stations that will buffer the Electric requirements of each charging station in addition to allowing the batteries to charge from the grid overnight.

Another option, for those who want to consider having an Electric Tow Vehicle is to choose a different (lighter) RV that will still be comfortable, but, will be towable with a Rivian, or an Electric F150, or a Tesla CyberTruck. Earlier this year I met a gentleman that was quite happy pulling his Casita Travel Trailer with his Tesla Model X. He never traveled over 200 miles in a day and he was able to recharge his Tesla every night in the camp ground. The Tesla met his towing needs just fine and he was quite proud to be able to camp with an Electric Tow Vehicle.

Honestly, If the Rivian, or the CyberTruck had been on the market when we bought our 310GK, we might have made a different choice for our coach. Don't get me wrong, I love our 310GK and Diesel F-350, but I would have also loved a Rivian and a Travel Trailer or 1/2 Ton 5th Wheel just as much (maybe more because I love driving EVs). FYI: the reason I didn't mention buying a CyberTruck in the previous sentence is because I am not completely sold on the CyberTruck styling. Having seen the Rivian in person I have to say that is a BEAUTIFUL Truck, the pictures and videos don't do it justice. I can only hope that the CyberTruck looks better in person, if that is the case, I could be swayed toward the CyberTruck.

One thing I would like to mention regarding the Injection of Math into our discussion; is that the weight of the RV has less to do with the range reduction, than does the size and aerodynamic shape of the camper. Hypothetically, if you took two campers with different weights and the heavier camper had a more aerodynamic shape, then your range would be reduced less than if you were towing the lighter camper that was shaped like a shoe box.

Speaking of Range and Towing, how bout the RV Manufacturers begin to produce RVs with better aerodynamics and we get a couple of tire manufacturers to develop Trailer Tires with less rolling resistance. Maybe our range would only be reduced by 40% versus 50%.

[Overtaxed]

All this talk about 1.21 gigawatt batteries. Where are we gonna get all that power from? Here in Calif we can't even keep the lights on!

The Tesla semi will take as much power in 1hr (assuming it's empty, of course) as a typical house consumes in a 3 weeks to a month. It's a staggering amount of power. If anyone knows how much diesel fuel is consumed per month by semis/trucks, I can do the math and figure out how much power it would take to turn all that to electric. Without doing the math, I can promise you, it's a staggering amount of energy. This is a hurdle I actually don't think is insurmountable, we know how to get more electric, it's just a long/difficult process to actually put that into action.

On the more pragmatic front, I think we have a long transition period in front of us. Let's just imagine a situation where suddenly the power is available, chargers are all over, and 1/2 the semis on the road suddenly disappear to be replaced by electrics. What happens to the price of diesel fuel and the price of electricity in that situation? Well, if you 1/2 the demand for diesel and multiple the demand for electric several times over, I'm no economist, but, I'm pretty sure I can tell you what will happen. Diesel prices fall, electric prices rise. Now, government may interfere with this process to change the equation, but, absent that, an equilibrium will be reached; whole lot of people drilling for and selling oil who need to sell their product, right now, it's kind of "diesel fuel or walk" are your options. When it becomes diesel, electric or walk, well, we'll see some real price competition. There's plenty of fuel out there in the world that can be extracted profitably at $1-2/gallon, which, depending where you live, is pretty on par with electric prices per KWH (if you do the conversion).

The Rivian has a published range of 400+ miles and a towing capacity of 11,000 lbs, additionally, Rivian has publicly stated that the range is reduced by 50% when towing. Consequently, everyone with a 11,000 lb RV (or less), be it a Travel Trailer, or a 1/2 ton towable 5th wheel, now has an Electric Tow Vehicle option (once production begins).

200 miles on 180KWH, that sounds high, but is in the realm of reason. That number will fall with less than optimal conditions, of course, very cold with the heat blasting, very hot with the AC blasting, etc. So, let's say you restrict your range to ~150 miles from your house to the RV park, that wouldn't work for me, but I'm sure it would for some. Then you get to the park, plug into the 50A, and assuming your RV isn't pulling much, you can be ready to go again in ~15-20 hours. That's workable; however, only for a limited number of people, I'm sure that RV parks aren't sized for 50A to each site at the same time, so if lots of people start trying this, you'll have a problem. Suppose you could get lucky and find some soft of high amp charger near your RV park, but I wouldn't bet money on it, it's sometimes hard to find diesel fuel in a truck pump, let alone a 100A+ charger. Assuming the truck is made compatible, the new V3 Tesla superchargers could get it from E to F in 40 minutes or so. But that's 40 minutes of wait time every ~2.5 hours at highway speed? That wouldn't work for me (and I'm not sure Tesla will allow a Rivan to charge at their stalls).

Forget about the propulsion for a second, just think about energy. A gallon of diesel is, after being converted in your engine, about 10-15KW of power. 40 gallon tank is basically a 500KWH battery for your truck. Until we get to numbers that look more like that (which the semi has, but nothing else yet), except for those that don't travel far with their RV's, the tech just isn't there yet. And that's without the brownout in California after a few "F450 electrics" all plug in and draw 1000KW in the course of an hour!

What I really want is a diesel-electric vehicle, just like a modern locomotive. That would be awesome, and I'd be in line to buy that tomorrow. The real issue is a simple one, diesel fuel is a remarkably dense store of energy. 40 gallons of diesel has more energy than 10 tons of lithium batteries. And weighs ~350lbs. And can be easily moved from one storage container to another at remarkable speed. 1000kw/H? ROFL, you can probably pump 100,000KWH of power per hour on a high speed diesel pump. Electric motors are equally awesome, quiet, tons of torque, very little to break/go wrong. Couple a 100HP diesel (50KW of electric power) to a moderate sized battery pack to handle surges and recapture energy.. I'd be all over that if they built something like this.

[SolarPoweredRV]

All this talk about 1.21 gigawatt batteries. Where are we gonna get all that power from? Here in Calif we can't even keep the lights on!

Many Charging Stations have battery banks attached to them so the Grid does not experience a big demand when several EV are charging all at one time (Electrify America is using Tesla's Power Packs). Additionally, this allows the batteries to charge overnight, when rates are low, or in the middle of the day when Solar output is at it's peak and the power companies don't know what to do with the excess Solar power.

The UK just did a study on their Electric Grid and they found that the Grid could easily handle 100% EV adoption.

[tatetoter]

All this talk about 1.21 gigawatt batteries. Where are we gonna get all that power from? Here in Calif we can't even keep the lights on!

From the clock tower of course. Haha. We just watched that movie with the kids yesterday.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[SolarPoweredRV]

The Tesla semi will take as much power in 1hr (assuming it's empty, of course) as a typical house consumes in a 3 weeks to a month. It's a staggering amount of power. If anyone knows how much diesel fuel is consumed per month by semis/trucks, I can do the math and figure out how much power it would take to turn all that to electric. Without doing the math, I can promise you, it's a staggering amount of energy. This is a hurdle I actually don't think is insurmountable, we know how to get more electric, it's just a long/difficult process to actually put that into action.

On the more pragmatic front, I think we have a long transition period in front of us. Let's just imagine a situation where suddenly the power is available, chargers are all over, and 1/2 the semis on the road suddenly disappear to be replaced by electrics. What happens to the price of diesel fuel and the price of electricity in that situation? Well, if you 1/2 the demand for diesel and multiple the demand for electric several times over, I'm no economist, but, I'm pretty sure I can tell you what will happen. Diesel prices fall, electric prices rise. Now, government may interfere with this process to change the equation, but, absent that, an equilibrium will be reached; whole lot of people drilling for and selling oil who need to sell their product, right now, it's kind of "diesel fuel or walk" are your options. When it becomes diesel, electric or walk, well, we'll see some real price competition. There's plenty of fuel out there in the world that can be extracted profitably at $1-2/gallon, which, depending where you live, is pretty on par with electric prices per KWH (if you do the conversion).

Your hypothesis might be true except for a couple of facts; most of the electric prices in this country (and others) are controlled by local Public Utilities Commissions which set the allowable rates an Electric Utility can charge. This will limit the free market price swings you could expect if Electricity were unregulated.

An Electric Semi is cheaper to operate. It is cheaper to fuel up and the maintenance is 50% less than on a Diesel Semi (Tesla has even included an unbreakable windshield, something that is expensive to replace and has to be done quite often on existing Semis). Trucking companies are smart when it comes to Fleet expenses and if you offer them an opportunity to save 20 - 30% in operating costs you can bet they are going to jump right on that.

As far as the transition period goes, I think you are going to be amazed at how fast the transition to Electric Transportation happens. I believe that Electric Semis and Heavy duty trucks will be changed over just as fast as manufacturers can produce the trucks. Think about it; do you think any fleet manager is going to miss out on a chance to reduce operating costs by 20 - 30%? Additionally, Fleets are constantly buying new vehicles because they wear out the existing vehicles, so in 3 to 4 years the entire fleet could be switched to EVs as opposed to maybe seven years for consumer vehicles.

[TheLexx]

Public utilities have not demonstrated a willingness to reign in utility rates. Here in Calif the PUC has rubber stamped every rate increase PG&E has sought. Our electricity rates are through the roof. Before we bought a house with solar, our summer electricity bills were over $1200/mo and that was 7 years ago!

IMO the electrification of a country as large as the United States will be a long and difficult process. There is no national energy policy and every state and local municipality will have their own agendas.

Combine that with the overwhelmingly large number of legacy ICE motor vehicles, the high cost of entry into EV vehicles, and IMO the changeover will take quite some time.

[Overtaxed]

https://www.businessinsider.com/this...intless-2019-2

Good article on the semi and some of the issues I've discussed.

And I'm not denying "it will happen", I believe it will. Just not anytime soon, or soon enough for me to take advantage of it to tow an RV.

Now, if they chucked something like this into an electric heavy duty truck:

https://www.absolutegenerators.com/w...a-tier-4-final

If we can get to 1KW/m on a truck platform towing an RV? This thing could almost keep up at highway speeds, and, coupled with a big enough battery, you could have a lot of options, plug in, charge up, or just park and let the genny charge the batteries back up overnight while you sleep. This thing could charge up a 500KW semi in about 12 hours, couple that with some sort of offboard power (a supercharger, RV plug in, etc), and you could get there pretty fast. Also, this is a 3.4L engine at 74HP, not a 400HP 10L tractor trailer engine. It's tuned to run at a certain speed, full tilt (100% capacity), it only uses 4 gallons/hr. 20,000 dollars isn't cheap, but compared to 100s of KWH of battery?

IMHO, this is the reasonable "medium term" answer to long haul trucking (and RV'ing), many of the advantages of electric without most of the downsides. Charge it up when you can, but, if you can't drop in diesel fuel and keep on trucking. Suppose you could build this yourself, buy a Cybertruck and drop this thing in the bed.