Tesla CyberTruck: How Battery Day Totally Changed What We Know About Electric Pickups

[Overtaxed]

When I'm ready for my next truck purchase 10-15 years from now, this space will be a different ballgame.

I agree, 15 years from now an EV to tow an RV might be a realistic option for a lot of people. I'm still not entirely sure we've got any idea though, even with a battery the size of a AA that stores a MW, how on earth we deal with the logistics of charging these things. It's just so much power. I can't find recent numbers, but in 2007, an average truck stop pumped ~800,000 gallons of diesel fuel every month. I suspect that's probably higher now, but, let's just use 800,000 gallons per month per truck stop as a starting point. If all those truck stops, tomorrow had high speed "electric pumps" and all our trucks were electric overnight, what does that math look like?

Well, if we use 10KWH as 1 gallon of diesel (and it's probably close to 15, but let's go low end), that's 8,000,000 KWH that need to be "pumped" into trucks at each truck stop over the course of 1 month. If we assume that we charge over 24 hours, again, best case (which isn't true, if you go to a truck stop at 3AM, they are empty), that's ~11,000KWH that we need in each truck stop. An 11KV distribution circuit has about 3,000W available. But, go ahead, call up the power company and tell them you need 11MW service.

Putting in other terms, a nuclear reactor, figure an average of 1GW; 1,000MW. That reactor will give you enough power to service around 100 "truck stops" (those that are pumping the average of 800,000 gallons anyway). It's actually more than that because there's no way we can reasonably assume a totally smooth 24 hour cycle of charging, accounting for spikes, maybe you're looking at servicing 50-75 truck stops per nuclear reactor.

It's just a staggering amount of power if we're talking about "fuel up fast" type locations.

[SolarPoweredRV]

I agree, 15 years from now an EV to tow an RV might be a realistic option for a lot of people. I'm still not entirely sure we've got any idea though, even with a battery the size of a AA that stores a MW, how on earth we deal with the logistics of charging these things. It's just so much power. I can't find recent numbers, but in 2007, an average truck stop pumped ~800,000 gallons of diesel fuel every month. I suspect that's probably higher now, but, let's just use 800,000 gallons per month per truck stop as a starting point. If all those truck stops, tomorrow had high speed "electric pumps" and all our trucks were electric overnight, what does that math look like?

Well, if we use 10KWH as 1 gallon of diesel (and it's probably close to 15, but let's go low end), that's 8,000,000 KWH that need to be "pumped" into trucks at each truck stop over the course of 1 month. If we assume that we charge over 24 hours, again, best case (which isn't true, if you go to a truck stop at 3AM, they are empty), that's ~11,000KWH that we need in each truck stop. An 11KV distribution circuit has about 3,000W available. But, go ahead, call up the power company and tell them you need 11MW service.

Putting in other terms, a nuclear reactor, figure an average of 1GW; 1,000MW. That reactor will give you enough power to service around 100 "truck stops" (those that are pumping the average of 800,000 gallons anyway). It's actually more than that because there's no way we can reasonably assume a totally smooth 24 hour cycle of charging, accounting for spikes, maybe you're looking at servicing 50-75 truck stops per nuclear reactor.

It's just a staggering amount of power if we're talking about "fuel up fast" type locations.

You can't make a gallon of Diesel to a Kwh of Electricity comparison because of the efficiency differences between ICE and EVs. Diesel engines (and Gas) are only around 25% efficient when it comes to moving the vehicle down the road while Electric Motors are better than 90% efficient. Most of the energy from a gallon of Diesel (or Gas) is wasted as heat.

Yes, the charging Infrastructure is going to require huge amounts of electricity, but by using batteries to buffer the demands on the grid, the grid can easily handle the extra energy requirements.

One giant benefit of electrifying our transportation sector is eliminating our reliance on foreign Oil from countries that don't really like us. By converting to Electric Transport we can take charge of our own energy needs and eliminate the need to fight a war over Oil ever again.

[SolarPoweredRV]

I'd use the batteries for DC and AC (through an inverter) to power everything but air conditioning. Currently have four Trojan T105s (450 a/h total when new) but would enjoy having much more power to maximize non-generator time, without adding much more weight.

I've heard of people using used Model S batteries. Not sure about cost or availability in Canada. Have you posted anything about your installation and can you provide a link?

Thanks.

First, I would like to say that using Tesla Model S battery modules to power your RV is not a project for anyone who is not well versed, and very comfortable in working with both DC and AC electricity.

To give you a little bit of foundational information; the Tesla Model S battery modules are 250 Ah, at 24 volts, which yields 500 amp hours of 12 volts DC power. There are modules that have higher Ah available, but they are priced higher. The most common module is the 250 ah battery and they are priced at ~ $1,000 each. When you compare this to a Battle Born battery system the Tesla Batteries are very, very attractive price wise ($200 per Ah vs $1,000 per Ah).

The downside is that installing a Tesla Model S battery is not an off-the-shelf solution and there are extra steps you have to take to keep you safe (basically, you have to build your own Battery Management System, not hard, or very expensive). I installed two Model S battery modules in my coach and the equivalent Battle Born batteries would have cost me $10,000, so the cost savings are definitely there. One thing to keep in mind, is that the only difference between installing a Battle Born battery solution and a Tesla battery solution is the cost of the batteries, all the other components will be the same.

In your situation, replacing your Trojens with a pair of Battle Born batteries (or a less expensive brand) would be a Drop-In solution, adding a third Battle Born Battery would be a very nice upgrade. If you decided that you needed even more capacity, you could add more batteries as your needs increase and your budget allows. If you wanted to pursue installing the Tesla batteries, you may need to upgrade your Inverter and/or other components in your system, depending on your current system's charging profile flexibility (Tesla Batteries have very specific Charge Voltages and not all Inverter/Chargers are capable of being set to those voltages).

If you want to get more information, Tom Morton, of Mortons on the move YouTube channel, has a couple of videos on his installation as well as an associated website that explains everything in very good detail (Tom was my guide and inspiration for my project).

Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_cC0NKvCDY

Installing the Tesla Battery Modules is a very rewarding and worthwhile project and I would encourage you to do it, with the caveat that you really need to be very comfortable and knowledgeable about DC and AC electricity.

[Overtaxed]

You can't make a gallon of Diesel to a Kwh of Electricity comparison because of the efficiency differences between ICE and EVs. Diesel engines (and Gas) are only around 25% efficient when it comes to moving the vehicle down the road while Electric Motors are better than 90% efficient. Most of the energy from a gallon of Diesel (or Gas) is wasted as heat.

Yes, the charging Infrastructure is going to require huge amounts of electricity, but by using batteries to buffer the demands on the grid, the grid can easily handle the extra energy requirements.

One giant benefit of electrifying our transportation sector is eliminating our reliance on foreign Oil from countries that don't really like us. By converting to Electric Transport we can take charge of our own energy needs and eliminate the need to fight a war over Oil ever again.

Sure you can make the comparison, you just have to account for the efficiency differences, which I did. A gallon of diesel actually has about 37KWH of energy in it, but, as you rightly point out, engines aren't anywhere near 100% efficient, but, at a constant load (like you have in highway speed driving) modern diesel engines are much better than 25%, they are closer to 40%. However, for the math I presented, I used a very inefficient diesel engine, assuming only 10KW out of the 37KW available (~25% efficient, a modern semi would be much closer to 40% than the 25% I used, which would make the numbers more outrageous for power requirements).

Also, in my truck stop example, while I didn't call out "buffer batteries" the impact of the way I did the math is the same, by assuming "smooth" charging over 24 hours, it's basically 11MW of power that's consumed if we intend to have a truck stop "fill up" the same number of semis that it does today with diesel fuel. In reality, you're right, you'd need large battery banks at the truck stop to deal with the fact that charging won't take place "evenly" over a 24 hour period, but, if you intend to keep that battery charged, the net result is the same, you need 11MW of power pulled into each truck stop.

There are a ton of advantages to electrifying our transportation. And for some applications, we're going to see it happen in the medium term; the UPS truck drives 40 miles a day and then sits at the depot all night, perfect candidate for electrification and no huge logistical challenges to jump over. Commuter vehicles, passenger cars, ATVs, motorcycles. We already see, and will see more, in all these areas over the short/medium term future. It's long haul, specifically long haul with a heavy load, where we just really don't have the technology/hurdles figured out because the power requirements are so high and the number of miles driven (on a long haul semi, for example) are equally outrageous. Will we figure it out? I'm sure we will, electric charging stations will become more commonplace, the electrical subsystem will improve, and eventually, we'll get there. But it's not as simple as "release a good truck/semi and the problems disappear", in fact, that's kind of the start of the "hard" problems. EV's work for a lot of people today because you can charge them at home in a reasonable time period, get reasonable range per charge, and have a network of places to charge up on a long trip. Apply that to a truck towing an RV, it would take days to fill it up at home (or an RV park), you'll get similar range after that charge to a standard EV, and there's almost no network of places that can accomodate a 60' long combined rig and charge it in a reasonable timeframe for >500 mile trips. The logistics just aren't there to replace a 4500 class diesel pickup truck for your Momentum with an EV for many of us. Not yet. They will be, I have no doubt, but it going to be a much longer process that most people think it will be because of simple math the outlines the power requirements of these things.

The way to overcome the logistics challenges today is, as I mentioned before, put a generator on board and make it a diesel-electric vehicle, similar to a train or a ship. That tech exists today, we could greatly improve the efficiency of modern pickup and semi trucks with a smallish diesel generator tuned for max efficiency at a single RPM band, and there's no logistics challenges at all. Also, the increase in cost wouldn't be that outrageous given the price point, drop out some batteries, add in a 100HP diesel engine/50KW generator, and away we go.

Something like this:

https://www.auroragenerators.com/pro...esel-generator

That's an 18K dollar generator, but the price uplift to go from the 500KW to 1MW semi is expected to be ~30K dollars. Offer a 500KW version with a generator like this in it, now you've got something that can really displace long haul/heavy hauling (RVs) needs in a big truck.

[phatty]

Tesla fan boy here. I'm on the cybertruck list. It will replace my 2019 Chevy Traverse my wife drives when it gets here in 2-3 years. The cybertruck will be amazing for 95% of our daily lives. Taking kids to school, going to store, 100 mile commute couple times a month to the office, going mtn biking (while charging ebikes), I think it will even be viable option to pull my snowmobiles 160 mile round trip.

It wont be a viable option to replace my RV tow vehicle. Infrastructure is not there for tow vehicle charging. Right now I can pull in to truck stop, fill up in 7-8 minutes while kids and wife use bathroom and were on the way again. I have no interest in a 30-60 minute stop to recharge. That's wasted vacation time. Additionally there are no viable options for recharging at remote campgrounds in the west. There is just far too much space and distance between recharge spots, but I know I can grab diesel in any little town we pass through if needed, potentially from some farmers fuel tank.

The california mandate is so misplaced IMO, they would have been better off mandating homes moving to solar as another poster mentioned. Let EV win by natural selection. As we increase power availability from renewable sources (wind, water, nuclear, solar) the demand for EV will naturally increase. Sadly it seems that power companies\solar companies are greedy MF content to profit every step along the way, which is not helping the cause. We are going to have huge needs of power as we migrate towards EVs, assuming we continue to increase demands for goods and need to travel. Getting homes off the grid and self sustaining should be a priority. Same for buildings and businesses. There are massive chunks of land out there for huge solar farms (yes I know lots of work to drag lines to and from them) but these have to be built if were going to go full long haul EV trucking.

Lots of good info in this thread. My new DMAX 3.0 is a sweet little motor for pulling my 2800BH, im very happy with it. I would love a 150-200hp motor like it powering up the batteries in an EV. Id take 400 mile towing range on 10-15 gallons diesel with a 60% battery charge at a station in a heart beat. This infrastructure doesnt exist though and likely wont ever. It will be one or the other.

[Overtaxed]

My new DMAX 3.0 is a sweet little motor for pulling my 2800BH, im very happy with it. I would love a 150-200hp motor like it powering up the batteries in an EV. Id take 400 mile towing range on 10-15 gallons diesel with a 60% battery charge at a station in a heart beat. This infrastructure doesnt exist though and likely wont ever. It will be one or the other.

Yup, I'd be all over that too. And, honestly, even though the Tesla semi will certainly get some sales for some applications, I think they'd sell a lot more of them too if they went diesel-electric, it just solves so many logistics problems when you're thinking about driving coast to coast haling a huge trailer behind you. Diesel fuel is a remarkably dense store of energy, batteries aren't even close, as I've discussed in this thread, 10 gallons of diesel fuel, at 80 lbs, has the same energy as a ton of batteries (the 85KW battery weights about 1200 lbs, 10 gallons of diesel is 150KW or so, depending on efficiency). We're at least 10X density of power in diesel fuel to density in a battery, and if we talk about potential energy (assuming we can make more efficient diesels, which we can if we tune them only to run at single RPM range, like a generator) it's closer to 20X. To replace 1LB of diesel fuel, you need 20Lbs of batteries. Yes, that will improve, but, then the logistics of getting that energy become a challenge.

The battle lines are drawn and nobody wants to cross them. But someone will eventually, taking a good electric drive/battery setup and coupling it to a very efficient generator/diesel engine. And then we will have something that can really replace our "direct drive" vehicles, and something that I'd get in line to buy in a heartbeat. I'd love to be able to do most of my trips without using the engine, just "fueling up" at home. And then for long trips, knowing that I can pull into the truck stop and take on 1-2 MW of power in 10 minutes if I can't plug in to charge and need the extended range. We could build this tomorrow, and we could do it at a reasonable cost, the problem is that both sides are so blinded by their beliefs (the EV makers thinking everything should be pure electric, the heavy duty truck makers thinking the opposite) that neither seems ready to budge.

I keep my fingers crossed. Much like you, I'm a bit of "fanboy", not of Telsa in particular, I just love EV's, they are awesome, the performance is staggering, they are so nice to drive and not having to refuel is pretty neat too. But it's just not there for this use case, and, like you said, it may never be (or never in my lifetime anyway).

[Nick31]

I too love the Tesla but with our needs we would need the SUV model and 100k for a secondary car is too steep for us. But what a pleasure to drive!

My question to add to the discussion is I hear many negative reports on these new lithium batteries and the damage these do to the environment from the acquisition of the materials to disposing of it when it’s life is over.

I don’t have have any facts on this. Can someone more knowledgeable shed some light on this potential problem?

[lorend]

The new battery that Tesla is putting out will be revolutionary but I am not sure that they have addresses all of the issues so far. In one of the original posts it stated the Semi will do 500 miles with 40K lbs. Any idea if they are looking at the fact that most long haul semis are running at 80K or more. And 500 miles is not a full day of driving for them. If you could get that much towing an RV, it still might be an issue for those that do a lot of boondocking. Not to many power sources in the middle of the forest. Yet. Any idea if the batteries could be recharged with an inverter generator?

[Overtaxed]

The new battery that Tesla is putting out will be revolutionary but I am not sure that they have addresses all of the issues so far. In one of the original posts it stated the Semi will do 500 miles with 40K lbs. Any idea if they are looking at the fact that most long haul semis are running at 80K or more. And 500 miles is not a full day of driving for them. If you could get that much towing an RV, it still might be an issue for those that do a lot of boondocking. Not to many power sources in the middle of the forest. Yet. Any idea if the batteries could be recharged with an inverter generator?

ROFL. Sure, they COULD be recharged on an inverter. Using a Honda EU2000, assuming perfect efficiency, it would only take ~500 hours to get up to a full charge. 20 days or so. (assuming the 1MW semi).

Charging an EV that has a reasonable range towing an RV (500 to 1000KWH), you need SERIOUS power. Even a 50A circuit (12KW), you're still talking close to 100 hours to get to full charge.

An inverter isn't going to do it. Reasonable charge times, if you're doing it from a generator, you're looking at 100KW generator; which would get you there in ~10 hours. That would be somewhat reasonable, drive 500 miles, charge overnight, drive another 500 miles. However, a 100KW generator needs ~200HP to run. Which is why I've spoken of diesel electric as a reasonable path forward. Put a 200HP diesel engine coupled to a 100KW generator under the hood, then, yes, you can boondock and charge up off your "generator". But not a generator you're gonna chuck in the back of your RV and pull out when you get to camp.

This is what it would take to get "full" in 10 hours:
https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect...BoC8P8QAvD_BwE

Now, IMHO, that's not the way to do it. I would want to see a 50KW generator, and use the batteries to buffer it. Drive for 10 hours, park, let the generator run the entire time (driving and parked) and recharge the batteries. You only need a 100KW generator if you are assuming 100% duty cycle, the truck never sits. Might need it for team driving semis; but wouldn't be necessary for most of us towing RVs.

[Skijobe]

You just can’t beat a diesel. Besides I love the way they sound.