Tesla CyberTruck: How Battery Day Totally Changed What We Know About Electric Pickups

[lorend]

ROFL. Sure, they COULD be recharged on an inverter. Using a Honda EU2000, assuming perfect efficiency, it would only take ~500 hours to get up to a full charge. 20 days or so. (assuming the 1MW semi).

Charging an EV that has a reasonable range towing an RV (500 to 1000KWH), you need SERIOUS power. Even a 50A circuit (12KW), you're still talking close to 100 hours to get to full charge.

An inverter isn't going to do it. Reasonable charge times, if you're doing it from a generator, you're looking at 100KW generator; which would get you there in ~10 hours. That would be somewhat reasonable, drive 500 miles, charge overnight, drive another 500 miles. However, a 100KW generator needs ~200HP to run. Which is why I've spoken of diesel electric as a reasonable path forward. Put a 200HP diesel engine coupled to a 100KW generator under the hood, then, yes, you can boondock and charge up off your "generator". But not a generator you're gonna chuck in the back of your RV and pull out when you get to camp.

This is what it would take to get "full" in 10 hours:
https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect...BoC8P8QAvD_BwE

Now, IMHO, that's not the way to do it. I would want to see a 50KW generator, and use the batteries to buffer it. Drive for 10 hours, park, let the generator run the entire time (driving and parked) and recharge the batteries. You only need a 100KW generator if you are assuming 100% duty cycle, the truck never sits. Might need it for team driving semis; but wouldn't be necessary for most of us towing RVs.

Thanks for the info. Wow, I obviously had no idea how much power was required to recharged the batteries that they are using. Tim the Toolman Taylor would be going "more power". lol. It is going to be an interesting ride to see how they fabricate something that will take care of the issues that people are talking about here, mainly better batteries and the infrastructure to support them.

[Overtaxed]

Thanks for the info. Wow, I obviously had no idea how much power was required to recharged the batteries that they are using. Tim the Toolman Taylor would be going "more power". lol. It is going to be an interesting ride to see how they fabricate something that will take care of the issues that people are talking about here, mainly better batteries and the infrastructure to support them.

"More power" indeed! Don't feel bad, very few people have done the math to figure it out, and it's not "impossible", it's just not "easy". We need major upgrades to the grid to make "fast charging" available universally for something like a semi. As I said earlier, if you look at a truck stop and how much fuel they pump in a day, if all those trucks were electric tomorrow, you'd need something like moderate sized substation at each truck stop to be able to fill them up quickly. This is what a 5MVA substation looks like, this would be able to fill 5 of the 1MW Cybertrucks to "full" in 1 hour (assuming they are bone dry with they come in). This comes off the 115,000 volt distribution line and steps it down to 12,000 volts. In reality, you'd need more than this in a truck stop sized gas station, they fill up far more than 5 semis/hr there today, most of the ones I go to have 15-20 fueling lines and it takes a lot less than 1hr to fill up so..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...Substation.JPG

It's the unspoken problem, even if there's plenty of capacity in the grid, there's a real problem getting that grid capacity to the places it's needed. The average house in the US uses about 1000KWH every month, a Tesla semi consumes that much power in an HOUR. Multiply that by lots of semis lined up fueling and you start to get an idea of scale of the consumption/issue here. It's a staggering amount of power, we can make it (in the grid), but getting it to the "end user" (the semi) quickly, that's a whole different challenge. Many of the truck stops out there aren't anywhere near the high or medium voltage network, so you've got to string the high voltage stuff over there (not cheap, and not fast because of the permits/construction required). And even then, if you magically get every truck stop in America connected to the medium voltage grid overnight, you still have the problem of areas that are underserviced by "big" truck stops as well as the problem of speed to deliver, what took 20 minutes now takes 1hr, so you need more lanes and more space for all the trucks.

It will happen, I have no doubt, but it's much further out to "full electrification" for heavy long distance hauling than I think most think. We're talking decades long infrastructure projects, not "drop in a 220V 50A line and you're good to go!".

[Overtaxed]

Interesting article about the "power problem".

https://www.greenbiz.com/article/ele...nt-planning-it

They estimate 20MW of new load requires a substation. If you think of every Loves/FlyingJ/etc you pass on the highway, each of those locations, to fuel up the something capable of hauling an RV, needs to have a substation built there. And I think that's reasonable, because if you think about the "lines" to get into the gas pumps many times, with sometimes 20, usually at least 10 pumps, you'll need more "pumps" for electric (because it pumps more slowly, even at 1MW, the semi will take an hour to fil up if it's empty). So a FlyingJ that has 10 diesel pumps would need 20+ 1MW chargers, and therefore, a electrical substation to handle the load. I do suspect that several stations could share a substation in close proximity, like you often find on a major highway where you get off and there's a Loves on one side of the street and a FlyingJ on the other. They could probably share a large substation between them. But we're talking about the 35KV lines, not the little 7200V stuff to get this kind of power. Something that looks like this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._powerline.jpg

[SolarPoweredRV]

As far as Electrifying the Semi and other Big work trucks goes, it is going to happen, sooner than most people think. The economics of running an Electric Fleet are just too great for it to not happen. For example: Walmart Canada just tripled their order for Tesla's Semi, while Walmart did say that they are doing this for the environment; you can bet your last dollar that they are doing this for the economics first.

While we have discussed how the Long-Haul Semis would be recharged, the truth is that over 80% of the Semis on the road are Short-Haul/Day Cabs that return to the Depot/Yard every night. A 300 mile range Semi will service this market extremely well (this also includes all the Box Trucks). Trucks that serve this market can recharge in Depots/Yards overnight where enhanced Grid connections will not be required.

The Long-Haul Electric Semi market will also become a reality, however this market will be slower to convert mainly due to the recharging issues we have discussed in the posts above. I would expect a nation wide carrier that has Depots scattered along a major highway would convert their fleet first because they can control their Trucks and Drivers easier (think; UPS, FedEx, Estes Freight, etc.).

I believe the OEM Truck manufacturers will also produce Hybrid versions of their Heavy Duty Pickups, unfortunately, I don't believe they will produce Diesel versions because of the high cost of Diesel Engines and the associated Pollution Controls (A gas engine will run a generator quite efficiently and at a lower cost).

The problem I see with the Heavy Duty Hybrid Pickup Trucks that might be produced by the "Big Three" (OEM) Auto Makers is that they will be "Mild" Hybrids and they will not have enough "All Electric" range.

There are basically two types of Hybrid Drivetrains, the "Mild" Hybrid where the Electric motor assists the ICE Engine in propelling the vehicle. This is the type of Hybrid System that is on the Toyota Pris, this type of system is great at increasing gas mileage, especially in city driving, because the Electric Motor is used to assist the vehicle when taking off from a stop (or at low speeds). The other type of Hybrid System is the "Series" Hybrid, this is where the Vehicle is always propelled by the Electric Motor and the ICE Engine only runs a Generator capable of generating enough Electricity to fully power the vehicle AFTER the batteries have discharged. This type of system can be the most efficient system because you can design the ICE Engine to operate at it's optimal RPMs and Power Curve, this is the Hybrid System that is used in the Chevy Volt.

The other problem I think the Big Three Heavy Duty Pickups will have will be not enough "All Electric" range. I suspect that the Big Three will produce Heavy Duty Pickups with only 100 miles of All Electric Range. While 100 Miles may be acceptable for an "around town" pickup, that 100 miles will disappear really fast once you begin towing with the pickup.

There is also another problem with the Hybrid Heavy Duty Pickups; and that is the issue of the Environment, Hybrids, especially Hybrids with short All Electric range, will not benefit the Environment as much, nor as quickly as a Full Battery Electric Pickup. Face it, these pickups have long lifespans and most of the Hybrid pickups will still be on the road 10 - 15 years after they are initially sold, that just means we are "kicking the can down the road" for our Grandchildren and Great-Grandchildren to deal with the Pollution and Climate Change issue that we have created.

For those who might not believe in Climate Change, You can't argue with the fact that CO2 has risen to over 412 PPM and that the main cause is burning stuff we probably shouldn't be burning. We now have technology available to us to stop burning that stuff. The sooner we stop burning this bad stuff, the better for our Children, Grandchildren, and their Grandchildren.

Full Electric propulsion for our entire Transportation Sector is Vital and we need to make this happen as soon as possible (for the betterment of mankind).

[Overtaxed]

Face it, these pickups have long lifespans and most of the Hybrid pickups will still be on the road 10 - 15 years after they are initially sold, that just means we are "kicking the can down the road" for our Grandchildren and Great-Grandchildren to deal with the Pollution and Climate Change issue that we have created.

But what's the alternative? No electrification of the HD pickup market? Isn't that worse? I agree, a full electric shows benefits faster, but, if we can't build it/recharge it today, how is that a "better" solution?

I focused on diesel-electric because it's the most efficient possible way to build it, but, you're right, a gas electric would work equally well, just will require more fuel. Diesel's are fantastic at running at a particular RPM range for LONG periods of time and with high efficiency. But a gas engine would be a heck of a lot cheaper, and, because the vehicle would have electric motors, the torque advantage of diesel for towing isn't required anymore (electric motors have stupid high torque) so, I'd be almost as interested in a gas-electric hybrid as I would a diesel-electric.

over 80% of the Semis on the road are Short-Haul/Day Cabs that return to the Depot/Yard every night

Really? I've seen stats that say the opposite, and every stat I've seen is that the majority of semi miles are driven long haul (which makes sense, more miles to cover).
https://nacfe.org/regional-haul/

Regardless, I think regional/day use semis, for sure, will be electric sooner than later. However, if we pivot the discussion to us using a pure electric to tow an RV, that's what I contend (along with long haul) is the "we're not even close" to building a vehicle that can do that, and, even if build it, we have no good answers for how to charge it because of the quantity of power required. The long range Tesla semi would actually work for me for almost every trip I've done with my truck with the exception of 2, I could have made it in a day with the battery onboard. Now, I would have had to stay a lot longer to recharge, but I could have made it. 2 trips, I did more distance, and wouldn't have made it in the semi without a recharge (and, of course, there's no recharge available to these things at high speed anywhere yet).

Full Electric propulsion for our entire Transportation Sector is Vital and we need to make this happen as soon as possible (for the betterment of mankind).

Well, yes and no. It gives us an enabling technology, but to really better our environment, we need to examine where the power comes from. A lot of electric in this country comes from dirty sources, we need to change that if we're going to get much net benefit from electrification moving forward. Wind, solar, etc, they all help, but what we need to attack are the baseload plants; or, put simply, we need to build more nuclear power plants. Given the time that takes, we need to start immediately. 62% of our power comes from burning "something" (nat gas, coal, oil, etc). 20% comes from nukes and another 20% comes from renewables. With the exception of hydropower, the renewables are great for peaks, but cannot supply the baseload, that's where nat gas/coal come in, and, well, that's not clean. We need to transition that mix to more nuclear to have the net carbon impact that we all want. Without significant changes, that process alone will take longer than my remaining years on this earth, building a new nuclear plant is, a decades long process. To really get "clean" we need both, nuclear baseload power AND a way to take that power and shove it effectively into our RV haulers and semis. I honestly think the 2nd is the "easy" part, at least if you leave out long haul it's something we can do today. Getting more clean baseload power is, well.. Imagine your worst trip to DMV. Multiply by a billion. Honestly, I think the only way we'd get it done in a reasonable timeframe (more nuke plants) is by executive order, there's just SO much red tape that it's near impossible. In fact, the department of energy has come out and said that it expects nuclear capacity to DECLINE over the next 30 years, with nuclear power going from ~20% of the grid capacity to ~11%. If you want "clean power" for the bulk of our electric, there's no way from A-B without "a lot more reactors" in between. Solar/wind/etc help, but they are bumps compared to nukes.

[SolarPoweredRV]

Well, yes and no. It gives us an enabling technology, but to really better our environment, we need to examine where the power comes from. A lot of electric in this country comes from dirty sources, we need to change that if we're going to get much net benefit from electrification moving forward. Wind, solar, etc, they all help, but what we need to attack are the baseload plants; or, put simply, we need to build more nuclear power plants. Given the time that takes, we need to start immediately. 62% of our power comes from burning "something" (nat gas, coal, oil, etc). 20% comes from nukes and another 20% comes from renewables. With the exception of hydropower, the renewables are great for peaks, but cannot supply the baseload, that's where nat gas/coal come in, and, well, that's not clean. We need to transition that mix to more nuclear to have the net carbon impact that we all want. Without significant changes, that process alone will take longer than my remaining years on this earth, building a new nuclear plant is, a decades long process. To really get "clean" we need both, nuclear baseload power AND a way to take that power and shove it effectively into our RV haulers and semis. I honestly think the 2nd is the "easy" part, at least if you leave out long haul it's something we can do today. Getting more clean baseload power is, well.. Imagine your worst trip to DMV. Multiply by a billion. Honestly, I think the only way we'd get it done in a reasonable timeframe (more nuke plants) is by executive order, there's just SO much red tape that it's near impossible. In fact, the department of energy has come out and said that it expects nuclear capacity to DECLINE over the next 30 years, with nuclear power going from ~20% of the grid capacity to ~11%. If you want "clean power" for the bulk of our electric, there's no way from A-B without "a lot more reactors" in between. Solar/wind/etc help, but they are bumps compared to nukes.

I agree that Nuclear is a good source of "Clean" Energy, however, this Clean Energy comes with a high price for disposal and Capital expenditure. In reality, Nuclear Energy is a lightening rod issue and I doubt that the US will be installing any new Nuclear capacity over the next decade or two, there might be a chance for smaller reactors, but I doubt it. I think we should keep the existing Nuclear fleet operational as long as we can with Safety being the number one priority. I think this should happen even if rates are slightly higher for Nuclear Electricity.

As far as "Base Load" power goes, the Grid operators and National Researchers are backing off from the "Base Load" power models and moving to a "Just-in-time" operational model. The new operation models rely more on "Demand" control and utilization rather than Base Load requirements. This new model also works well with distributed generation (Solar Panels on rooftops) and battery backup systems.

Recent research has also suggested that we over build our Solar and Wind generation capacity in order to reduce our need for grid-scale storage systems ( storage can take any form: Li-on Batteries, Flow batteries, Liquid Air storage, Gravity, or Pumped Hydro).

As with most things, Economics rule our actions and, fortunately for us, Solar and Wind are now the cheapest sources for Grid Scale Electricity and Solar/Wind with Storage is very attractive from an economical and operational point of view.

As far as the source of our electricity which goes into our Electric Vehicles, the energy mix is getting cleaner and cleaner all the time. Just today I woke up to the news that a Texas company was going to be shutting down their Coal Fired power plants in Illinois and Ohio much sooner than planned. And while we still have a lot of our electricity generated by Natural Gas, Natural Gas is much cleaner than the Coal generation that many of these Gas Turbines replaced. Additionally, batteries are beginning to replace Gas "Peaker" plants which will stem the addition of more gas generation on our Electrical Grid.

[Skiddy]

@Overtaxed - of course the majority of semi miles are long haul, a couple of days on a super slab is more than a city semi runs in a month, possibly a year! My neighbour drives a Freight-liner and his average workday is 8 hours, average mileage is <300km, or <200 miles. He hauls either a 30 ft or 40 ft trailer if I understand him correctly, delivering wood products. The future of electric semis is in local distribution not long haul. In our area, products come in from all over north america via rail, long haul trucks and are distributed via short haul trucks with low milage high hours. Beer, food, lumber, cement etc.. all could be hauled by an EV semi.

[Overtaxed]

Yup, and for that purpose, an EV would be fine because you put the truck up at night, and unless you have a fleet of them, you can probably get it charged in ~16 hours of sitting time with a reasonable amount of electric available (not a 200A home circuit though, but something you'd have in a commercial building w/3 phase electric delivered). No argument from me there at all, I'm sure my UPS driver will be in an EV in the next 10 years, it makes a lot of sense for that type of application.

It's only when we start to talk about hauling an RV or long haul trucking that I throw the "physics" or "math" flag. That's where things get out of control in a hurry, when your talking about taking your RV 1000 miles to go camping, or when you're talking about a long haul trucker using an EV that I just don't see how we get there. Do some people tow their RV a small distance and then setup at camp long enough to recharge? Sure, I'm sure that some people do. That's just not my use; not even close. Even the semi would only work for me if I they had a lot of high speed chargers around the country and I had more patience than I actually have.

And that's the semi; the thing that started this thread was the pickup. And that's just a "no". 100-150KWH, even if the pickup could tow a big 5er; just isn't even in the zip code, you need a LOT more power on board (again, more like the semi, 500-1000KWH) to have a reasonable range towing an RV. Sure, it might work for some people with small trailers and very short towing distances, but I have to believe that it's a very small segment of RV'ers.

Going to be an interesting decade or so, that's for sure, watching this transition take place.

[jkwilson]

For some of it to work, it may take a major revision in the way long haul trucking works.

Maybe the trailer has the batteries and maybe even the drive axles. Driver hauls a trailer until the batteries are low, stops at a “truck stop”, drops his trailer off for charging and hooks to a new, fully charged trailer. Finally when the trailer gets close to it’s destination, a local delivery driver picks it up and takes it to the destination. Maybe urgent shipments would need a different kind of trailer with replaceable batteries. You’d need some kind of organized routing so drivers would know where to stop for another load. Maybe long-haul trucking will disappear, replaced by drivers shuttling a trailer a few hours one way, then hauling another one back toward home.

Maybe with the pickup segment for both RVs and light commercial stuff you’ll get a battery exchange. Cylindrical batteries that slide into the vehicle or a box lifted in with a forklift.

The hard thing about major technology shifts is that it’s so hard to stop trying to fit the new way of doing things into the old way instead of figuring out the best way to use the new technology from a clean slate. The trucking industry and associated business are the way they are because that’s what they’ve evolved to be because it works. A new energy source may completely change everything about the industry.

[SolarPoweredRV]

For some of it to work, it may take a major revision in the way long haul trucking works.

Maybe the trailer has the batteries and maybe even the drive axles. Driver hauls a trailer until the batteries are low, stops at a “truck stop”, drops his trailer off for charging and hooks to a new, fully charged trailer. Finally when the trailer gets close to it’s destination, a local delivery driver picks it up and takes it to the destination. Maybe urgent shipments would need a different kind of trailer with replaceable batteries. You’d need some kind of organized routing so drivers would know where to stop for another load. Maybe long-haul trucking will disappear, replaced by drivers shuttling a trailer a few hours one way, then hauling another one back toward home.

Maybe with the pickup segment for both RVs and light commercial stuff you’ll get a battery exchange. Cylindrical batteries that slide into the vehicle or a box lifted in with a forklift.

The hard thing about major technology shifts is that it’s so hard to stop trying to fit the new way of doing things into the old way instead of figuring out the best way to use the new technology from a clean slate. The trucking industry and associated business are the way they are because that’s what they’ve evolved to be because it works. A new energy source may completely change everything about the industry.

A very, very good point. Most likely the new way of doing business will be better and more productive than the old methods.

I know that UPS Drivers drive their loads to a mid-way point, then take their lunch break and swap trailers with the Driver that came from the other direction. This way, both Drivers get to sleep in their own beds every night and have a much better quality of life than OTR Drivers that are on the road for 4 - 6 weeks at a time. That kind of time away from home makes for a very poor quality of home life. Even the trucking companies who guarantee "Home Time" every other week have trouble keeping good drivers because being away from home for such long periods stresses marriages and other relationships.