Estimating Max Pin Weights on Momentums

[LMychajluk]

The most accurate way to get the pin weight and for that matter, the weight of the trailer as well is at a scale, assuming you have the trailer in your possession. ....

Even if I had the trailer in my possession, how am I supposed to get it to the scale so I can figure out what truck to buy?

Based on a 25% max pin weight, GD doesn't seem to make a 5th wheel toy hauler that can be towed by a SRW 1-ton truck (except maybe a bare-boned single cab long bed 2WD....). I kind of find that hard to believe...

One of the models I'm looking at is the 351M. I found this thread with a few weights mentioned in it:
https://www.mygrandrv.com/forum/show...oll-quot/page2

The weights in the thread vary from '3000lbs for me, almost right on the nose, when I picked it up from the dealer' to 'NO toy in garage, Both fuel tanks full, no water or waste,650lbs or so of stuff, our PIN is 2880lbs, gross 14760lbs. With the H-D in the garage our PIN is 2760, gross about 15960'. The highest actual number mentioned in the thread was 3240# ('I was 3240 lbs when I weighed it with a full front water tank and normal load').

20% of the 351M's 16600# GVWR is 3360# (3600# w/ the 8k axles?). I would get the 8k axles, but mostly for the disc brakes, and would probably not load more than I would if I only had the 7k axles, so let's assume 16,500# max loaded. That's 3300# at 20%, or 4125# at 25%. That's a pretty big swing.

FWIW, the 320G, which I'm also considering, is ~1200# lighter and almost 500# less on the pin than the 351M per spec, but has the same GVWR and a higher cargo capacity than the 351, so would the 320G be better or worse for staying within limits, assuming the loaded weight is the same 16500#? It has less water capacity, but the tank (I would assume) would still be over the axles, but it also has an extra 30gal of fuel (~200lbs?) behind the axles. (This comparison is kind of where my OP came from...)

I'd be perfectly comfortable with a pin weight <3500# and the truck that I'm currently looking at, but if I was to assume the 25% of GVWR or even loaded weight as the pin weight, I'd be over payload with either of these. If I could, I'd just buy a semi and I know I'll be good to tow whatever, but having a semi that doubles as my daily driver isn't an option.

Now, on a related note, couldn't you also run nose-high an inch or so to shift some more of the weight back on the trailer axles vs the pin, provided the axles and tires can handle it? Particularly with the 351M, I would consider the 8k axles and an equalizer like the CRE3000 on the springs (if it's not already factory-installed) mostly for the disc brakes.

[bertschb]

...I'd be perfectly comfortable with a pin weight <3500# and the truck that I'm currently looking at, but if I was to assume the 25% of GVWR or even loaded weight as the pin weight, I'd be over payload with either of these. If I could, I'd just buy a semi and I know I'll be good to tow whatever, but having a semi that doubles as my daily driver isn't an option.

No need for a semi but if you plan to get a Momentum, you should get a dually. Can you get away with an SRW with a lighter Momentum? Yep. I see it all the time. But, if you get a late model dually, you won't need to worry about pin weight or payload ratings. I'd personally skip the F-350 DRW and get the F-450. Among the many advantages over the F-350 is the better turning radius which helps with daily driving.

It sounds like you are trying to find a way to get a Momentum to work with a SRW truck. I did the same thing when I bought our Solitude 373FB with a 16,800 GVWR. In the end I knew what I needed to do so I bought a DRW. I didn't know much about the F-450 at that time so I bought an F-350. It worked fine but I'm skipping the F-350 the next time I need a DRW.

[LMychajluk]

...It sounds like you are trying to find a way to get a Momentum to work with a SRW truck....

Shhh.... I'm trying not to get this thread side-tracked into another SRW / DRW debate, and keep it concentrated on what real-world pinweights to expect from a Momentum.

[bertschb]

Shhh.... I'm trying not to get this thread side-tracked into another SRW / DRW debate, and keep it concentrated on what real-world pinweights to expect from a Momentum.

Sorry, not trying to derail your thread. It's just sooooooo hard to estimate pin weights on a toy hauler because there are so many ways to load the garage.

[Txfivver]

Shhh.... I'm trying not to get this thread side-tracked into another SRW / DRW debate, and keep it concentrated on what real-world pinweights to expect from a Momentum.

It's almost impossible to get into pin weight discussions on the bigger trailers and not bring up duallys. I just looked at the 351M on GD's site, it's very similiar to my Solitude in empty weight and empty pin weight, 16800 GVWR on both and 2785 pin on the 351 vs 2900 on my 375RES. My factory weight sheet showed 3150 pin weight due to outdoor kitchen. Now add 80-100 pounds of batteries and 100 pounds of propane bottles and yours is at basically 3000 pounds. Will you add an Onan generator? Most toy hauler guys want one, that's another 300 pounds. Now you're at 3300 lb pin before you load your camping supplies and food and clothes etc. You'll easily be over your 3500 pound pin limit you stated. Yes a heavy toy in the garage may knock a couple hundred off that but it adds up pretty easily. Mine left the factory at 3100 pin weight and it's at 3900 now with Onan. WD, and basic camping supplies. No way I'd pull it with a SRW. Just another free opinion lol.

[BB&LAB]

Even if I had the trailer in my possession, how am I supposed to get it to the scale so I can figure out what truck to buy?

Based on a 25% max pin weight, GD doesn't seem to make a 5th wheel toy hauler that can be towed by a SRW 1-ton truck (except maybe a bare-boned single cab long bed 2WD....). I kind of find that hard to believe...

One of the models I'm looking at is the 351M. I found this thread with a few weights mentioned in it:
https://www.mygrandrv.com/forum/show...oll-quot/page2

The weights in the thread vary from '3000lbs for me, almost right on the nose, when I picked it up from the dealer' to 'NO toy in garage, Both fuel tanks full, no water or waste,650lbs or so of stuff, our PIN is 2880lbs, gross 14760lbs. With the H-D in the garage our PIN is 2760, gross about 15960'. The highest actual number mentioned in the thread was 3240# ('I was 3240 lbs when I weighed it with a full front water tank and normal load').

20% of the 351M's 16600# GVWR is 3360# (3600# w/ the 8k axles?). I would get the 8k axles, but mostly for the disc brakes, and would probably not load more than I would if I only had the 7k axles, so let's assume 16,500# max loaded. That's 3300# at 20%, or 4125# at 25%. That's a pretty big swing.

FWIW, the 320G, which I'm also considering, is ~1200# lighter and almost 500# less on the pin than the 351M per spec, but has the same GVWR and a higher cargo capacity than the 351, so would the 320G be better or worse for staying within limits, assuming the loaded weight is the same 16500#? It has less water capacity, but the tank (I would assume) would still be over the axles, but it also has an extra 30gal of fuel (~200lbs?) behind the axles. (This comparison is kind of where my OP came from...)

I'd be perfectly comfortable with a pin weight <3500# and the truck that I'm currently looking at, but if I was to assume the 25% of GVWR or even loaded weight as the pin weight, I'd be over payload with either of these. If I could, I'd just buy a semi and I know I'll be good to tow whatever, but having a semi that doubles as my daily driver isn't an option.

Now, on a related note, couldn't you also run nose-high an inch or so to shift some more of the weight back on the trailer axles vs the pin, provided the axles and tires can handle it? Particularly with the 351M, I would consider the 8k axles and an equalizer like the CRE3000 on the springs (if it's not already factory-installed) mostly for the disc brakes.

Your original query was kind of vague and did not indicate you were in need of a truck, making it difficult to answer the question directly. You are smart and observant with keeping an eye on the pin weight as the pin weight becomes part of the payload. I have seen far too many 5th wheels in campgrounds being towed by trucks with not enough payload capacity and it appears you are trying to avoid that. Likely a SRW will not work, when you factor in payload capacity as I believe you are discovering. You are also smart to not buy a truck until you have identified a trailer you like.

[LMychajluk]

Your original query was kind of vague and did not indicate you were in need of a truck, making it difficult to answer the question directly. .....

Yes, I intentionally worded it to try to focus the discussion on how to estimate the pin weight, and not turn it into another 'which truck do I need' thread. So, if I could rephrase my original question to be less vague - 'How do I most accurately estimate the max pin weight of a 5th wheel toy hauler?'. I don't think that's vague, though I understand it may not be easy question to answer. If it helps, assume I have a dually, but also want to haul around some anvils for my blacksmithing hobby in the bed of the truck.

And FWIW, I have a SRW 1-ton truck currently on order. This truck will also be a daily driver, my only 4 wheeled vehicle capable of being driven on public roadways, a not a dedicated tow vehicle, and for various reasons that I won't get into detail here about, a dually is not currently an option for me. But at this point (and I am fully aware of this), the truck will limit my selection of trailers, not the other way around. I am not getting into a dually, and without doing so, there is not much I can or am willing to do to increase payload beyond the truck's current configuration. There are a few Toy Haulers I'm looking at, both from GD and other brands (some of which are significantly lighter than the Momentums...). Some of the options I'm considering are well within the limits I've established, and some are pushing those limits a bit, and I'm trying to make an educated decision on which I can comfortably and safely tow based on the info I have.

The problem I'm running into is that the info published by the RV manufacturers is almost useless - I can't spec out a truck based on that info without grossly overestimating my needs. There also doesn't seem to be any way to get a valid estimate on the pin weight at GVWR based on any readily available information, and that can change based on how the trailer is loaded, pin height, and other factors as well. And using GVWR as the 'worst case scenario' isn't really valid, either - one can just as easily blow by that limit as well. BTW, the truck manufacturer's aren't any better - Ford's towing guide, for instance, claims you should estimate 15% of the trailer weight for 5th wheels, so if I use their numbers, I'm golden. Some on the internet say to estimate 25%, and if I go by that, I think I may have already killed myself and anyone in a 1/2 mile radius. On top of it all, any threads or posts you look at where someone asks for some real-world numbers on a specific model trailer, 95% of the answers are people jumping in with guestimates, not actual numbers, and are often based on different models and even entirely different model lines (e.g. - are pin weights really comparable between one guy's a 2-axle, 36' toy hauler and another guy's 3-axle, 42' travel trailers?), and that's not even getting into how the specific model was optioned and loaded.

So, in my OP, as an 'estimate', I was wondering if I can use the percentage of dry tongue weight to UVW. I even found an online calculator that does this - http://www.towingplanner.com/Estimat...nWeightFromDry. But, even with the calculator, there's still the 'fudge factor', so even that calculator is not accurate. It also doesn't account for balance of the load and just assumes the same ratio, though I suspect that with a TH the percentage of pin weight will decrease as the trailer is loaded.

Sorry if this sounded too much like a rant...

[Crazybanshee]

Real numbers 2017 397th Momentum Pin 6200 lbs axels 16300 lbs total trailer weight 22,500 lbs 2019 RZR S1000 and three quads in the garage

[xrated]

Real numbers 2017 397th Momentum Pin 6200 lbs axels 16300 lbs total trailer weight 22,500 lbs 2019 RZR S1000 and three quads in the garage

So you are OK with being 2500 lbs over the GVWR of the trailer?

[LMychajluk]

Real numbers 2017 397th Momentum Pin 6200 lbs axels 16300 lbs total trailer weight 22,500 lbs 2019 RZR S1000 and three quads in the garage

8k Axle option? That would keep you under GVWR.

But, how did you get a RZR and 3 quads into the 12' garage?