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10-05-2020, 07:17 AM #21
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The pin box is rated at 21,000 lbs so i am fine with the numbers. It has the 7,000 lbs axles so I am 4700 lbs under ratings.
If I park the RZR into the left corner I can get a 100cc quad next to it and the stand two Banshees up with the tires against the ramp door2007 Volvo 780 VNL Trailersaver Hitch
2017 Momentum 397th
2015 Polaris RZR 900S Voodoo Blue
2017 Polaris RZR S1000 Matte Black
2019 Polaris RZR S1000 Titanium Matte
3 Yamaha Banshee's 2-Honda 400 EX's
Honda 250EX 2016 Polaris Outlaw 110 EFI
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10-07-2020, 03:26 PM #22
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My 2019 351M came w a sheet from the factory giving the pin and gross weight of the trailer w the installed options (which included the generator and 3rd AC). It was within a 100lbs at the scale
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10-07-2020, 04:47 PM #23
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You can calculate the pin weight transfer for any mass by proportioning the center of gravity of the mass and the distance to the pin
This applies to loads between the pin and the axle centerlines
Loading behind the axles unloads the pin by the same amount as the increase in axle weight beyond the mass weight
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10-07-2020, 04:55 PM #24
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This method will give a somewhat useful answer, but will not be exact. It all depends on what weight is loaded and where relative to the center of mass of the trailer. Pin weight could go up or down. I'd calculate it this way and if it's in 20-25% range, I'd feel pretty good about it within +/- 3% or so. JMO. Good luck!!
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10-07-2020, 05:18 PM #25
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I would use the 20 -25% as well for ballpark if
The example I gave would be useful for adding a component like a generator
Two thoughts
You will not know the side to side weight distribution
If you are not running level, for calculation purposes, the assumed centerline of the tandem moves accordingly
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10-07-2020, 05:18 PM #26
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It definitely is possible to estimate the impact of any weight change to the overall pin weight. All you need is the baseline weight, the location of the weight to be added, and the actual amount of weight to be added. I built a spreadsheet for my 381M to do just this.
The theory behind this is straightforward. Not to get too much into the details, but when you add a weight to the trailer a new static balance will be established. By looking at the torques around the axles and the pin it is possible to calculate the impact on the pin weight and axle weight. My spreadsheet has entries to compute the impact of adding fuel, water, waste, or general cargo to the RV. Here are some examples for my particular unit:
Configuration as delivered:
- Total weight 15,084 pounds
- Pin weight 2,650 pounds, 17.6%
Impact to the base configuration of adding 1,000 pounds to the garage (in my case an ATV and motorcycle:
- Total weight 16,084 (Up by 1,000 pounds)
- Pin weight 2,247 (dropped by 403 pounds), 14.0%
Notice the pin weight and the percentage dropped because the weight is behind the axles.
Impact to the base configuration of filling the two fresh water tanks (104 gallons basically over the axles, 52 gallons slightly behind the axles)
- Total weight 16,385 pounds (Up by 1,301 pounds)
- Pin weight 2,635 (down by 15 pounds), 16.1%
Adding a lot of weight here did not change the pin weight because the additional weight is mostly over the axles.
Impact to the base configuration of traveling with full main gray and black tanks (each tank is 52 gallons about 12 feet in front of the axles)
- Total weight 15,591 (Up by 867 pounds)
- Pin weight 3,036 (up by 386 pounds), 19.0%
This configuration adds a high percentage to the pin weight because the weight is well ahead of the axles.
To check this with real world data and to answer your question about what the total pin weight could be, here are the measured values from my typical load including an ATV, motorcycle, groceries, the washer and dryer I added, tools, and so on. This is from a CAT scale:
- Total weight 18,700 pounds (Up 3,616 pounds over my base configuration)
- Pin Weight 3,060 (Up 410 pounds from my base configuration), 16.4%.
Notice that adding 3,616 pounds of total weight only added 410 pounds to the pin, so about 11% of the additional weight went to the pin and 89% to the axles. This is why the rules of thumb for a toyhauler about how much the pin weight changes for a total weight change don't give accurate answers.
I could try to make a very unbalanced load by taking my typical load and removing the ATV and motorcycle and also traveling with full waste tanks. This would increase my pin weight quite a bit:
- Total weight 18,387 (down 313 from my typical configuration)
- Pin weight 3,929 (up 869 from my typical configuration), 21.4%
However, this is not a very realistic scenario for me. Given this is a toyhauler, I typically keep my toys in it for traveling and I never travel far with anything but empty waste tanks.
Rather than using the rule of thumb of saying the maximum pin weight is 20-25% of the total weight I think you are better estimating the realistic total pin weight can increase by up to 11% of the total cargo carrying capacity. I showed in the last scenario that can change with your loading, but it should give a better answer than just taking a percentage of the total trailer weight.
P.S. I expect to get many comments about needing more pin weight for a stable tow, what happens when you put every tool you own in the front cargo bay, and many other scenarios poking holes at the above. My experience from 18 months towing with my F-350 SRW is it is a smooth and stable tow, no issues with stability from winds or passing trucks, and easy to load without worrying about too much pin weight.
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10-07-2020, 05:33 PM #27
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These calculations are all very useful. Especially for purchasing decisions
But double check at the scale for verification and peace of mind
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10-07-2020, 05:47 PM #28
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I agree you can use these as a guideline but the final judge is the CAT scale.
I included my typical configuration that was measured on a CAT scale and also verified the calculations using a CAT scale. I went to the scale and weighed the unit, then unloaded the ATV and Motorcycle, weighed the unit again, then dumped the fresh water, and then weighed a final time. I didn't verify the waste tanks since that involves a lot more work to know the accurate fill level.
I would also add that these numbers are for my tank layout and garage size. Different size garages will have different impacts as will differences in the tank layouts.
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10-07-2020, 06:31 PM #29
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Wow, @BobKilmer! If I had those kinds of detailed examples for the 351M, I may be waving some money at a dealer already. Based on your '11% of CCC' estimate, the 351M would be ~3250# pin weight - well within my comfort zone. But you almost have me thinking about the 381M now, just because I'd be perfectly comfortable with the numbers as you've presented them. Thanks very much for that detailed post!
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10-07-2020, 06:59 PM #30
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Bedroom Sconce Light
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