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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brantel View Post
    So I have a 2020 F-250 SD 4WD FX4 XLT CC SB with the 6.7PS, 3.55 e-locker, and the HCTP. (unrelated to this question but for more info, it has the 3" class V travel trailer hitch from factory rated at 21,200/2120)
    It has the M275 rear axle and the 5 rear spring setup. It also has the factory Ford 5th wheel prep package.

    The stickers:
    GVWR - 10,800 (Tennessee rules)
    Rear GAWR - 6,340
    Front GAWR - 5,200
    Factory cargo rating - 2,906
    Factory calculated curb weight - 7,894

    Actual curb weight with full fuel and no passengers (CAT Scale) - 7,780 total, 4,620 steer, 3,160 drive
    Adjusted cargo rating based on real curb weight - 3,020

    It is obvious that there is some significant derating going on here since the F-250 with the HCTP and the F-350 are basically the same truck when it comes to what matters towing a 5th wheel.

    The Rear GAWR for the F-350 is 7,230 for the same axle and spring setup
    The GVWR for the F-350 is 11,500 in the same configuration.

    It appears that the limiter for rear GAWR the F-350 is the same as for the rear GAWR on the F-250 and that is the tire/wheel combo.
    It appears that the limiter for the GVWR on the F-250 vs the F-350 is the artificial limit imposed by the 10,800 GVWR on my truck.
    Using the non-derated numbers of the F-350, then my F-250's payload rating would be ~ 3,720.

    Other notes:
    Tennessee has a max GCWR of 26,000 the truck actual is 30,000
    The max 5th wheel hitch capacity of the Ford 5th wheel prep package is 19,000

    Now that you have all the numbers, can my truck safely tow a Grand Design Reflection 311BHS?
    Brochure numbers:
    UVW = 11,185
    GWVR = 13,995
    Pin weight = 2,197
    "Can it do it safely"
    Safely is a term each of us must define for ourselves.
    What I call white knuckle driving someone else will be comfortable with.
    Strictly speaking only for myself I want as much distance between actual weights
    and Truck imposed limits as I can afford or am willing to spend.
    Some folks will take exception to this and that is okay.
    Bob A.
    Bob & Alice
    2020 Ram 3500 Limited Megacab SRW Aisin
    2020 Grand Design Imagine 2450RL
    ProPride 3P 1400 lb. bars WDH
    Micro Air easy start, Goodyear Endurance Load rated "E" Tires
    Titan 50 gallon diesel replacement tank
    Previous: 2019 Ram 1500 Limited

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brantel View Post
    So I have a 2020 F-250 SD 4WD FX4 XLT CC SB with the 6.7PS, 3.55 e-locker, and the HCTP. (unrelated to this question but for more info, it has the 3" class V travel trailer hitch from factory rated at 21,200/2120)
    It has the M275 rear axle and the 5 rear spring setup. It also has the factory Ford 5th wheel prep package.

    The stickers:
    GVWR - 10,800 (Tennessee rules)
    Rear GAWR - 6,340
    Front GAWR - 5,200
    Factory cargo rating - 2,906
    Factory calculated curb weight - 7,894

    Actual curb weight with full fuel and no passengers (CAT Scale) - 7,780 total, 4,620 steer, 3,160 drive
    Adjusted cargo rating based on real curb weight - 3,020

    It is obvious that there is some significant derating going on here since the F-250 with the HCTP and the F-350 are basically the same truck when it comes to what matters towing a 5th wheel.

    The Rear GAWR for the F-350 is 7,230 for the same axle and spring setup
    The GVWR for the F-350 is 11,500 in the same configuration.

    It appears that the limiter for rear GAWR the F-350 is the same as for the rear GAWR on the F-250 and that is the tire/wheel combo.
    It appears that the limiter for the GVWR on the F-250 vs the F-350 is the artificial limit imposed by the 10,800 GVWR on my truck.
    Using the non-derated numbers of the F-350, then my F-250's payload rating would be ~ 3,720.

    Other notes:
    Tennessee has a max GCWR of 26,000 the truck actual is 30,000
    The max 5th wheel hitch capacity of the Ford 5th wheel prep package is 19,000

    Now that you have all the numbers, can my truck safely tow a Grand Design Reflection 311BHS?
    Brochure numbers:
    UVW = 11,185
    GWVR = 13,995
    Pin weight = 2,197

    The thought that you might could go over gvwr is valid based on axle ratings. The thought that you can just exceed the axle rating I would be very surprised to find to be true. You had better check every single part number in that driveline - something as simple as an axle diameter or u joint could be limiting you, and Ford has been known to change little things like that.

    If the suspension can handle the weight and the truck drives fine, that trailer can likely be towed by your truck, and even be within listed numbers. Maybe try not to pack it full to the trailer’s GVWR if you can avoid it.

    I don’t think these trucks are derated as badly as people think now that they have broken the 10k barrier. But your numbers are still very doable.
    2022 Transcend Xplor 240ML
    2019 Imagine XLS 17MKE (sold 8/22)
    2017 Ford F-150 XLT 5.0 Fx4
    Blue Ox WDH

  3. #13
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    I don’t think these trucks are derated as badly as people think now that they have broken the 10k barrier. But your numbers are still very doable.
    I'd agree with you, the 10K barrier, for a diesel 250 class truck, was really problematic. You could configure a F150 that could carry more weight than a 250 diesel, having owned both, that's patently ridiculous. The 14K barrier is also a little nuts, a F350 can haul more than F450? That makes no sense at all, but, hey, it is what it is, right?

    I've been, and continue to think, axle ratings are really what matters if you're playing the numbers game. Problem is, even that's a bit up for debate, what's limiting the axle? Tires/suspension (easy fixes) or the axle/differential/frame (not easy fixes). Take engineering, add in government regulations, sprinkle some "classes" on top, and you've a number that may or may not be in any way related to the "safe" workload of your machine. I long for tractor ratings; "It'll lift 4K lbs to 10ft high from 2 ft in front of the pin", "75HP at the engine, 60 at the PTO". No "fudge", just "here's what it can do, decide for yourself if this is good for your application.

  4. #14
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    You are correct, my 27RL stays under the 10K sticker of my truck. We love how the truck and 5er handle, that being said I would need a bigger truck if we ever wanted to go to a larger unit, which we won’t do.
    Bob and Cheryl, Puka the doodle
    2018 Ram 2500 Crew,Diesel,4x4
    2016 Reflection 27RL
    2012 Palomino 6.5 camper

  5. #15
    Fireside Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brantel View Post
    So I have a 2020 F-250 SD 4WD FX4 XLT CC SB with the 6.7PS, 3.55 e-locker, and the HCTP. (unrelated to this question but for more info, it has the 3" class V travel trailer hitch from factory rated at 21,200/2120)
    It has the M275 rear axle and the 5 rear spring setup. It also has the factory Ford 5th wheel prep package.

    The stickers:
    GVWR - 10,800 (Tennessee rules)
    Rear GAWR - 6,340
    Front GAWR - 5,200
    Factory cargo rating - 2,906
    Factory calculated curb weight - 7,894

    Actual curb weight with full fuel and no passengers (CAT Scale) - 7,780 total, 4,620 steer, 3,160 drive
    Adjusted cargo rating based on real curb weight - 3,020

    It is obvious that there is some significant derating going on here since the F-250 with the HCTP and the F-350 are basically the same truck when it comes to what matters towing a 5th wheel.

    The Rear GAWR for the F-350 is 7,230 for the same axle and spring setup
    The GVWR for the F-350 is 11,500 in the same configuration.

    It appears that the limiter for rear GAWR the F-350 is the same as for the rear GAWR on the F-250 and that is the tire/wheel combo.
    It appears that the limiter for the GVWR on the F-250 vs the F-350 is the artificial limit imposed by the 10,800 GVWR on my truck.
    Using the non-derated numbers of the F-350, then my F-250's payload rating would be ~ 3,720.

    Other notes:
    Tennessee has a max GCWR of 26,000 the truck actual is 30,000
    The max 5th wheel hitch capacity of the Ford 5th wheel prep package is 19,000

    Now that you have all the numbers, can my truck safely tow a Grand Design Reflection 311BHS?
    Brochure numbers:
    UVW = 11,185
    GWVR = 13,995
    Pin weight = 2,197
    My 2020 F350 long bed 4x4 has a 12,400 GVWR, payload shows 4561 on the sticker, the rear axle is 7230 GAWR and the front is 5600 GAWR.

    Cat scale no trailer but fully loaded for pulling to include full tank of fuel (48 gallons), hitch, dog and myself. Front 5160 rear 3860.

    I weighed the trailer 2020 320G fully loaded to include a 800 RZR in the back and about 50 gallons of water it came out to 2320 lbs. on the hitch and 13,360 on the trailer axles.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 7B09AE5A-DD2A-452D-8764-F04B2383E33E.jpeg   29D9B83C-8D88-4B2B-BD42-5F4F82853380.jpg  
    2021 F350 CC LB
    DW, diesel, 4x4
    2020 Momentum 320G

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overtaxed View Post
    While I'm sure we can build some corner case, I think this statement is true the vast majority of the time. Especially if the truck is de-rated to <10K lbs, it's almost certainly a "no". The interesting discussion is "can it do is safely" which we can all argue about for hours, is it "technically able" (staying below all the weights on the stickers) is just a "no" the vast majority of the time. Does that matter? That's another conversation that can go on for 100 pages.

    I do wonder if that still holds true though for the 20/21 models, I thought I heard that some of the 3/4 ton class was moving up to 11K GVWR? If so, on paper, it might be possible now.

    My 2020 2500 LB Duramax GVWR is 11550

  7. #17
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    Before long, we will stop having these conversations. For 2020, GM blew up conventional wisdom when it comes to GVWR. Until MY 20, all 250/2500 trucks were rated at 10,000 GVWR max. That is what defined a 250/2500. That GVWR was the max allowable to maintain the status as a Class II truck. At 10,001 GVWR, a truck moves to Class III. That is what defined a 350/3500 truck. It is the same reason Ford rates a F450 at 14,000 GVWR (the same as a DRW 350). At 14,001 GVWR a truck moves into Class IV. Every step up in class has the potential to alter licensing, registration and insurance issues.

    Even axle ratings are deceptive. As stated earlier, a 2020 F250 can be equipped to be identical to a 2020 F350 but the GVWR and rear axle rating will be different. Same Dana axle, same springs, same wheels and the same tires. The lower axle rating is likely due to lower tire inflation as it rolls off the assembly line. I believe a 250 is inflated to 65 psi and a 350 is inflated to 80 psi. I know that was the case on my 2019. As a side note, although Ford upped the F250 max GVWR for 2020, the max axle rating is still 6340, no different than 2019.

    The whole "is it safe" thing is very subjective. So many aspects play into towing safety; mechanical capability, maintenance, speed, and driver awareness just to name a few. For me, the one thing that I don't really put much stock in are door jamb stickers. Many things other than true capability impact what is reflected on those stickers. I am comfortable doing some research and calculations to determine true capability as opposed to capacity as stated on the stickers. Others religiously adhere to those stickers and I acknowledge that is a very valid way to approach the situation and in a vacuum, a safe way also. Staying under the capacities on your stickers does not make anyone safe. If you are 1,000 pounds under your payload capacity (so safe!) but driving 75 MPH while tired after a long day, you are not safe!

    The OP's truck appears to be mechanically well suited to towing the 311BHS. It will probably be over the payload rating and might even be over on rear GAWR. Of course, if his truck happened to be an F350 (equipped identically) he would be good on both accounts. Will it tow it safely? As stated previously, that is dependent on a whole lot more ratings.
    2019 F250 Platinum, 6.7, LB, FX4, High Capacity Tow Package
    B & W Companion
    2019 303RLS

  8. #18
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    I’m on the fence of trading in my new 2500 duramax & picking up a new 3500. It’s either that or I step down to the 320g which is a safer bet for capabilities of my 2500. Wife really wants 351M; but it’s to much for my current truck. So time will tell.

  9. #19
    Left The Driveway Leeandleslie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abigwhtman View Post
    I’m on the fence of trading in my new 2500 duramax & picking up a new 3500. It’s either that or I step down to the 320g which is a safer bet for capabilities of my 2500. Wife really wants 351M; but it’s to much for my current truck. So time will tell.
    Thats what I pull my 350m with, you’ll love it.
    2017 GD Momentum 350M
    2017 3500hd Silverado Dually
    2015 Harley Davidson Heritage
    Andersen Hitch

  10. #20
    Big Traveler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abigwhtman View Post
    I’m on the fence of trading in my new 2500 duramax & picking up a new 3500. It’s either that or I step down to the 320g which is a safer bet for capabilities of my 2500. Wife really wants 351M; but it’s to much for my current truck. So time will tell.
    Unless it's a DRW, make sure you know what you're "buying". It's a new sticker, maybe an overload spring, and "legal" (which is a very gray area, but let's just say the 3500 might be "legal" where the 2500 is not). But you're not buying safety except maybe from the law (and, again, these conversations happen regularly and in 1000's of pages, I'm not sure I've seen one "I got an overweight ticket" first hand account). Now if it's 2500 to 3500 DRW (assuming they offer that, Ford does in the 350), that's a different ballgame, more tires on the ground, more contact patch, redundancy, less weight on the tire, wider stance; there's a long list of safety and comfort you just "bought" when you buy a dually. But a 250 class SRW to 350 class SRW, it's REALLY hard to point at, literally anything other than a "sticker" that actually makes you safer on the road.

    I pulled a 351M with a 2019 F250. Traded it for a F450. But, I want to be clear, it's not because the 250 couldn't handle it, it could and did it well. It's because I could spend some money and buy safety, which is what I did. But I'd bet a lot of money that a 250 with bags would pull a 351M more comfortably than a 350 without airbags would.

    Honestly, this whole "class" thing shouldn't exist. Tell me what's the max the truck can do safely. Don't tell me what the limit for a particular class is and rate the truck right there (like the 250 and the 450, both are "class limited" trucks). But, of course, if they did that, the 250 would cease to exist and they sell a LOT of them, so... Here we are.

    All that said, with the truck companies going over 10K on the 250 class now, I'm really not sure what the heck they're doing. I live in a place where the registration difference between a 250 and 350 is huge (1000's of dollars a year), but it's all because of the de-rate on the 250. If they're not going to do that anymore, well.. Why have both?

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