Seamless transfer from main power to generator backup. How can I accomplish this?

[the.jmo]

Not quite a grand design or RV question, but seeing as there are so many creative, and intelligent gurus here on the subject I figured it would be fitting.

I own a gas station in Northern California. As many of you know, we frequently deal with regulated power shut offs. I have a generac, and important control systems and computer/electronics plugged into outlets inside are on battery backup while we transfer over the 30 seconds to backup generator from main power.
However, my gas pumps and their electronics lose power, then again are re powered by the backup generator.
I am looking to eliminate this, and transfer seamless as my interior electronics do. I do not need very much reserve, less than a minute with a very low draw.
How can I integrate a battery system in conjunction with my generator, that once main power is lost, the battery carries the load until the generator comes on? This is a 30 second automatic occurrence.

Today, I have $8,000-$10,000 in failed equipment from this power loss. The equipment is very sensitive and very expensive. Not only that, but we may now have weeks of downtime as a result.


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[geotex1]

Not quite a grand design or RV question, but seeing as there are so many creative, and intelligent gurus here on the subject I figured it would be fitting.

I own a gas station in Northern California. As many of you know, we frequently deal with regulated power shut offs. I have a generac, and important control systems and computer/electronics plugged into outlets inside are on battery backup while we transfer over the 30 seconds to backup generator from main power.
However, my gas pumps and their electronics lose power, then again are re powered by the backup generator.
I am looking to eliminate this, and transfer seamless as my interior electronics do. I do not need very much reserve, less than a minute with a very low draw.
How can I integrate a battery system in conjunction with my generator, that once main power is lost, the battery carries the load until the generator comes on? This is a 30 second automatic occurrence.

Today, I have $8,000-$10,000 in failed equipment from this power loss. The equipment is very sensitive and very expensive. Not only that, but we may now have weeks of downtime as a result.


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Your backup system was insufficiently designed or executed as this should not happen. I have generator backups for my plants and laboratories alike, and equipment damage would be completely unacceptable, You likely would be well served with a line conditioner to buffer the automatic transfer period. Must be an EE or 3 on here that can take this to nth degree for you.

[the.jmo]

Your backup system was insufficiently designed or executed as this should not happen. I have generator backups for my plants and laboratories alike, and equipment damage would be completely unacceptable, You likely would be well served with a line conditioner to buffer the automatic transfer period. Must be an EE or 3 on here that can take this to nth degree for you.

Do those systems transfer without loss of power? The way this works, the grid main power goes down. The generac panel automatically kicks on. But there is still a 30 second loss, in that time very expensive electronics lose power. I want to eliminate that. Does the line conditioner hold a charge of some sort to maintain that period?


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[Chewwi]

Do those systems transfer without loss of power? The way this works, the grid main power goes down. The generac panel automatically kicks on. But there is still a 30 second loss, in that time very expensive electronics lose power. I want to eliminate that. Does the line conditioner hold a charge of some sort to maintain that period?


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You can’t connect independent power sources instantaneously. Power plants and utilities can transfer quickly, within a few cycles, when it is planned in advance and using complex and expensive protection circuitry, relaying, and breakers. Paralleling two sources out of sync or outside voltage limits will damage equipment.

To protect you electronics, supply them with uninterruptable power supplies (UPS) such as is available at computer and electronic stores. The UPS supplies the loads from batteries feeding inverters with voltage regulators. The batteries are being continuously charged for the ac supply. Upon loss of ac power the UPS continues to feed the load until the battery is depleted. Even the smaller UPSs can supply the loads for several minutes, so you won’t even notice the loss of external ac other than the UPS sounding an alarm. I’m not sure what electronics you are needing to protect, but computers, stereos, and TVs are easily protected. Most UPSs even have warranties regarding protected equipment.

[the.jmo]

You can’t connect independent power sources instantaneously. Power plants and utilities can transfer quickly, within a few cycles, when it is planned in advance and using complex and expensive protection circuitry, relaying, and breakers. Paralleling two sources out of sync or outside voltage limits will damage equipment.

To protect you electronics, supply them with uninterruptable power supplies (UPS) such as is available at computer and electronic stores. The UPS supplies the loads from batteries feeding inverters with voltage regulators. The batteries are being continuously charged for the ac supply. Upon loss of ac power the UPS continues to feed the load until the battery is depleted. Even the smaller UPSs can supply the loads for several minutes, so you won’t even notice the loss of external ac other than the UPS sounding an alarm. I’m not sure what electronics you are needing to protect, but computers, stereos, and TVs are easily protected. Most UPSs even have warranties regarding protected equipment.

I have those on all interior electronics that are fed from a receptacle.

What I need, is the same thing in theory for my pumps. Which are hard wired.

I have been speaking with the service companies about putting basically a battery backup inside of each dispenser if possible.


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[geotex1]

I have those on all interior electronics that are fed from a receptacle.

What I need, is the same thing in theory for my pumps. Which are hard wired.

I have been speaking with the service companies about putting basically a battery backup inside of each dispenser if possible.


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Your pumps, I would suspect, aren't being damaged by the loss of power, but are by the power surge of the generator. Again, I suspect the system was not appropriately designed are implemented. The dispenser manufacturer should be able to provide complete electrical specifics for backup power given the requirement in standard fare after the major storms that hit the US. Anyway, you may need a conditional (uninterrupted power supply by also manage surges and low voltage), your generator output waveform may be too coarse, or maybe you just need a longer delay in transfer to allow voltage-storing components of circuits to dissipate before re-energizing.

[cookinwitdiesel]

Sounds like you need UPS functionality but on a much larger scale than what consumer offerings deliver (but the same functionality). That is, you need, inline, a battery powered output to your pumps that can receive and pass through grid/generator power when available and will automatically switch over to battery power (usually in as fast as 10-20 ms) if grid is lost. Separate from that, would be your existing generac switch over setup which is all on the "grid" side of your setup.

Victron MultiPlus inverter/chargers are very good at this and even have a specific UPS function that can be turned on when programming the unit. The way this works is that the inverter/charger has an input side and an output side, and is connected to the battery bank at all times. When input power is present (either grid or generator - whatever comes out of your transfer switch), the batteries will be charged and maintained and power will be passed through to your loads on the output side. When input power is lost, the unit will immediately switch to inverting DC power from batteries into AC power that your loads can consume. This happens fast enough that semiconductor electronics are not impacted - so definitely fast enough for motors. Also, since the input power passes through the MultiPlus, it will also have a synchronized waveform on the output so when inverting from battery is needed, this happens quick and clean. Victron has a very robust offering and can provide a number of solutions ranging from 120v or 240v single waveform, to 120/240v split-phase with multiple units working together, even expandable up to 3-phase operation for larger industrial type equipment (your pumps may need 3-phase power).

May be worth taking a look. Victron is one of the favorites amongst the solar/inverter crowd in RVs and Yachts and also do a ton of off-grid stuff.

[Chewwi]

Not quite a grand design or RV question, but seeing as there are so many creative, and intelligent gurus here on the subject I figured it would be fitting.

I own a gas station in Northern California. As many of you know, we frequently deal with regulated power shut offs. I have a generac, and important control systems and computer/electronics plugged into outlets inside are on battery backup while we transfer over the 30 seconds to backup generator from main power.
However, my gas pumps and their electronics lose power, then again are re powered by the backup generator.
I am looking to eliminate this, and transfer seamless as my interior electronics do. I do not need very much reserve, less than a minute with a very low draw.
How can I integrate a battery system in conjunction with my generator, that once main power is lost, the battery carries the load until the generator comes on? This is a 30 second automatic occurrence.

Today, I have $8,000-$10,000 in failed equipment from this power loss. The equipment is very sensitive and very expensive. Not only that, but we may now have weeks of downtime as a result.

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Read your original post again.

You could aquire large invertors, batteries, and associated chargers to create your own UPS to power the pumps. Not sure what the load demand is for your pumps but a UPS system could be constructed to supply them. If your only need to supply the pumps for 30 seconds the battaries need not be that large. Instead of putting one in each dispensor, they could be hardwired thru the existing ac breaker panel.

Of course this additional equipment has its own cost including maintenance and replacement. The economics viability of such a system for your situation depends on your specific situation but based on your $8k to 10k loss, it appears to be economically feasible.

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[Ynot4me2]

Many of our Data Centers are backed up by UPS until the generator fires up and gets up to speed. Check with Eaton or APC. They have different types of UPS and sizes for business. Anywhere from 500watt to in the mega watts. It's not cheap and batteries as we know have to be replaced.

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[traveldawg]

Maybe just set your generator controls so it doesn't automatically transfer power. Make it a manual transfer. That way you could trip the breakers off for your pumps and whatever else and once the generator is up to speed and running right flip them back on. It seems anything short of that is going to require a pretty large UPS.

I worked in a lot of data centers with pretty expensive UPS systems. It was my experience that the transfer was hardly every neat and clean for every piece of equipment. I don't recall loosing any equipment, just having to reboot/restart/reinitialize stuff (usually as the expense of my sleep late at night). That was a good number of years ago. Maybe things have improved. But if I had a generator on my house there would be no way I would let some automatic transfer switch handle things and I run UPSs on all my electronics and A/V systems.