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  1. #41
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    You can add all the weight you want to the front and it won't stop the sway from semis or stronger winds. The fact that your TT axles are too far forward will always create a horizontal teeter totter effect. TT's are a big box and they move easily with side winds. Not having the leverage point of axles being further to the rear reduces the TT's stability. Couple that with a truck that has had it's weight reduced by switching to aluminum and you have a dbl whammy.

  2. #42
    Site Sponsor sande005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goducks14 View Post
    You can add all the weight you want to the front and it won't stop the sway from semis or stronger winds. The fact that your TT axles are too far forward will always create a horizontal teeter totter effect. TT's are a big box and they move easily with side winds. Not having the leverage point of axles being further to the rear reduces the TT's stability. Couple that with a truck that has had it's weight reduced by switching to aluminum and you have a dbl whammy.
    It is unfortunate that we are using the word "sway" in these discussions to describe two different aspects of towing dynamics. There is an oscillation of the back end that, in the worst cases, continues to amplify, until the combination literally throws itself off the road. Higher speeds exacerbate it. It can initiate on its own, or be a reaction to even small side forces - truck suck, wind, bumps in the road, a slight turn of the tow vehicle, etc. Most hitches use some kind of friction to discourage/prevent that waggle. But, with enough energy (speed) that can be overcome, and sway initiated. Then it is a matter of slowing down, until the point where the available friction dampens it down. I'll call that "sway" here. Many physics studies showing that it only due to too little tongue weight.

    The second is as described by goducks14, and is the natural reaction to sideways forces. The distinction is that it happens essentially once, and is not self perpetuating (until the next gust, truck, etc.). I'll call it "truck suck" here (but it includes wind effects too).

    The first, at a low level, can be very hard to distinguish from the second. The rig could be just on the edge of overcoming the sway control (friction), and with higher instability, the more frequent and stronger the side-to-side movements can be felt. Since it can quickly develop into a life threatening situation, that is the first order of business to go after. The OP's evaluations show that he is at the low end of the rough rules-of-thumb, so making changes there first are indicated. Change the balance of that teeter-totter, if you will. It is a high probability that that will make things more stable, and the side forces felt less frequently and to a lesser degree. Hopefully to a point where it is acceptable.

    After repeated testing, it might bear out that he doesn't notice much change. And it may be that his trailer was not on the verge of breaking into "sway". But at least he has eliminated one big possibility. Tires, air pressure, trailer attitude, better weight distribution can and do help reduce the "truck suck" issues. (and don't have to wait on the TW solution, either). As can going to a radically different/expensive hitch. Not saying the "you need a bigger truck" argument is wrong. But there are a lot of other things to get right, long before that becomes the only solution. It's not just the weight of the bigger truck - their tires are different, their suspensions, their frames, distribution of weight, etc., etc., etc.

    Both with the OP's setup, and mine (different truck, different trailer) it is a puzzle why there seem to be so many of the same combinations on the road without these issues, and we got "lucky" with ours.....so sharing what I learned, in an attempt to get him over his issues...
    2017 Imagine 2670MK
    2012 F-150 SCrew, Eco, 4x4 6.5 box
    Max. Tow, HD Payload, Airbags, ProPride hitch
    (Previous: Jayco 26.5RLS Fifth, Revolution Pinbox)

  3. #43
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    Agree with sande005 that sway may be to harsh of a term. Wandering would better fit the situation. I've had two TT's that wandered all the time. On the interstate where there can be deeper ruts I find that those TT's tended to wander more since the axle width is 8' and the ruts are less than that in the center. Out on the hwy where there are less ruts the TT's tracked fine.
    Both TT's wandered but never got close to an almost out of control situation.

    5th wheels with 8' wide axles are still in the ruts or wind situations but because of the pin location over the trucks axle it doesn't have as much leverage force on the truck like a ball hitch thats 4' behind the axle.

  4. #44
    Site Sponsor sande005's Avatar
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    True. Just as a sidebar, with the same truck, and my old 5th, there were times I felt the wind and/or trucks going by. One trip through Chicago was a bit of a wheel gripper. Now with the TT, and the ProPride, I'm back to that same level of stability. The sad side: with the same weight 5th, I got 11 mpg over 11,000 miles. Now with the TT, I get 8. Aerodynamics can be cruel.

    (FYI - the 5th tried to delaminate due to a branch tearing the roof. All then current replacements had gained weight, putting me over payload, so I had to "downsize"....)
    2017 Imagine 2670MK
    2012 F-150 SCrew, Eco, 4x4 6.5 box
    Max. Tow, HD Payload, Airbags, ProPride hitch
    (Previous: Jayco 26.5RLS Fifth, Revolution Pinbox)

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by sande005 View Post
    It is unfortunate that we are using the word "sway" in these discussions to describe two different aspects of towing dynamics. There is an oscillation of the back end that, in the worst cases, continues to amplify, until the combination literally throws itself off the road. Higher speeds exacerbate it. It can initiate on its own, or be a reaction to even small side forces - truck suck, wind, bumps in the road, a slight turn of the tow vehicle, etc. Most hitches use some kind of friction to discourage/prevent that waggle. But, with enough energy (speed) that can be overcome, and sway initiated. Then it is a matter of slowing down, until the point where the available friction dampens it down. I'll call that "sway" here. Many physics studies showing that it only due to too little tongue weight.

    The second is as described by goducks14, and is the natural reaction to sideways forces. The distinction is that it happens essentially once, and is not self perpetuating (until the next gust, truck, etc.). I'll call it "truck suck" here (but it includes wind effects too).

    The first, at a low level, can be very hard to distinguish from the second. The rig could be just on the edge of overcoming the sway control (friction), and with higher instability, the more frequent and stronger the side-to-side movements can be felt. Since it can quickly develop into a life threatening situation, that is the first order of business to go after. The OP's evaluations show that he is at the low end of the rough rules-of-thumb, so making changes there first are indicated. Change the balance of that teeter-totter, if you will. It is a high probability that that will make things more stable, and the side forces felt less frequently and to a lesser degree. Hopefully to a point where it is acceptable.

    After repeated testing, it might bear out that he doesn't notice much change. And it may be that his trailer was not on the verge of breaking into "sway". But at least he has eliminated one big possibility. Tires, air pressure, trailer attitude, better weight distribution can and do help reduce the "truck suck" issues. (and don't have to wait on the TW solution, either). As can going to a radically different/expensive hitch. Not saying the "you need a bigger truck" argument is wrong. But there are a lot of other things to get right, long before that becomes the only solution. It's not just the weight of the bigger truck - their tires are different, their suspensions, their frames, distribution of weight, etc., etc., etc.

    Both with the OP's setup, and mine (different truck, different trailer) it is a puzzle why there seem to be so many of the same combinations on the road without these issues, and we got "lucky" with ours.....so sharing what I learned, in an attempt to get him over his issues...
    Here is a video showing what Sande005 is explaining:

    https://youtu.be/6mW_gzdh6to

    As Sande005 knows, the ProPride hitch takes away the pivot point at the hitch ball, so it's more like a fifth wheel when it's windy or being passed by a semi.

  6. #46
    Setting Up Camp Russ Coble's Avatar
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    ProPride 3P

    Quote Originally Posted by NDIrishLacrosse View Post
    Good advice. Getting to the CAT scales while loaded up is on my to-do list. Was going to do that on the way home today, with the family in it, but I detoured off the highway to get away from the wind. By the time I was at home, I needed a break!

    Are the E tires for the truck, trailer, or both (excuse my ignorance)? My truck tires are still the manufacturers (20,000 miles on them now) so it isn't outside the realm of a possibility for me to look at newer, stiffer truck tires. The F-150 has 275/65R18 Michelin's. The 2400BH still has the Westlake's.

    Any thought to traveling with fresh water in the tank to increase weight around the axle?

    You aren't the first person to mention a Pro Pride. What's the approximate cost and will it really be the be-all-end-all everyone claims?
    On my last SouthWest travel (approx. 5K miles) I towed our Reflection 297RSTS (29') with a 2018 Ford F150 Lariat with 3.5 EB. I purchased the ProPride 3P 1500 for approx. $3K. Truck towed trailer just fine over mountains and on flats of NM/TX with heavy crosswinds without any issues and no sway. Although the lightness of the 1/2 ton truck caused it to be pushed around quite a bit by the heavier trailer. in crosswind situations. After returning home (Iowa) I decided to upgrade my tow vehicle to the F250 6.7 Diesel and couldn't be happier. I've taken the trailer out a couple of times camping around Iowa and I barely notice the trailer behind. I also don't get pushed around by trucks or crosswinds like I did with the F150. The F150 was a great tow vehicle, but I just wanted a little more stress free driving while towing. I also upgraded to the Platinum, so now I have massaging seats for those long drives. So unnecessary, but So nice to have.

  7. #47
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    Wanted to take a minute to re-visit this thread and provide some closure.

    De-winterized and moved my 2400BH around some. Did a considerable amount of research on my hitch, upgrading vehicles, changing hitches, etc.

    Thanks to the insight in this group, here’s what I did: raised the L brackets on my Equalizer hitch one hole. Seems to put more weight onto the front steering. Also added 1/3 tank of water in my fresh tank to provide a ballast.

    Took it out on Sunday before the changes in 17 mph winds and was all over the place. Took it back out after the changes in the same wind... was able to one hand drive and felt comfortable. Knock on wood this helps! Thanks everyone for your insight and help.

  8. #48
    Site Team Ynot4me2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NDIrishLacrosse View Post
    Wanted to take a minute to re-visit this thread and provide some closure.

    De-winterized and moved my 2400BH around some. Did a considerable amount of research on my hitch, upgrading vehicles, changing hitches, etc.

    Thanks to the insight in this group, here’s what I did: raised the L brackets on my Equalizer hitch one hole. Seems to put more weight onto the front steering. Also added 1/3 tank of water in my fresh tank to provide a ballast.

    Took it out on Sunday before the changes in 17 mph winds and was all over the place. Took it back out after the changes in the same wind... was able to one hand drive and felt comfortable. Knock on wood this helps! Thanks everyone for your insight and help.
    Those minor adjustments on the wdh can change every. Real glad you got yours tuned in so you can enjoy your ride. Amazing how one hole, one more washer can make a huge difference.

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    Steph & Lise
    2019 F150 Lariat 2.7 EB
    2020 Imagine XLS 22MLE

  9. #49
    Site Team Redapple63's Avatar
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    Limiting wind sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by NDIrishLacrosse View Post
    Sande005,

    I like your thinking... will be easy to get the wife to agree to new lithium ion batteries and a Trager when I call it all in the name of safety... ha!

    The numbers were received from towing planner.com. They don't give an explanation of how their plug and play website figures the weights entered.

    Here's my numbers:
    Truck/Trailer with hitch and WD bars engaged
    Steer axle: 3040 lbs
    Drive axle: 3100 lbs
    Trailer axle: 5760 lbs
    Gross: 11,900 lbs.

    Truck/Trailer hitched without WD bars engaged
    Steer: 2860
    Drive: 3400
    Trailer: 5660
    Gross: 11,920 (not sure where the 20 pounds came from. I figure CAT scale error/placement error of some sort. Truck was only moved to disengaged the WD bars)

    Truck
    I didn't have time to weigh the truck on its own today. I had done this previously with a full tank of gas. Those numbers were Steer 3180 and Drive 2460. Yes, I know its most accurate to do this at the same time but it simply wasn't in the timing for me today. I was down to 3/4 tank of gas today, that was the only difference (I travel lightly in my truck). Ford's computer fuel gauge is pretty accurate. Gave me that I was down 9 gallons of gas at 6.3 lbs per gallon, estimated 60 pounds off the drive axle. Sure, it probably splits the difference between the steer and drive axles, but as you said we don't need to be aerospace engineers here. That brings us to:
    Steer: 3180
    Drive: 2400

    GVWR is 7,000 for my truck. Max payload is 1,690. Max towing per Ford's towing guide is 10,700. GCWR is 16,100.
    Sandee005, these numbers totally confirm your 114lb assessment. That additional 114lbs would put him right where he needs to be for TW.

    Glad it was figured out!

    Excellent job!


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    2019 GMC 3500 SRW Sierra Denali Duramax
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  10. #50
    Site Sponsor sande005's Avatar
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    Wow, a happy ending to a long tale! And all it cost in the end was some weight tickets, and a few gallons of water!

    Congrats!
    2017 Imagine 2670MK
    2012 F-150 SCrew, Eco, 4x4 6.5 box
    Max. Tow, HD Payload, Airbags, ProPride hitch
    (Previous: Jayco 26.5RLS Fifth, Revolution Pinbox)

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