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Thread: DEF Disaster

  1. #11
    Big Traveler Txfivver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntindog View Post
    This is why I do not use pump DEF.
    If the person at the pump before you for some reason managed to get Diesel on the DEF pump nozzle...... Perhaps by mistakenly putting in his full diesel tank..... You will get contamination.
    For me, the cost savings vs. the risk cost of a repair just isn't favorable.
    Same here. I only buy the Motorcraft DEF from my dealer and keep all the receipts. With a 7+ gallon tank I would just carry a couple or three 2.5 gallon jugs on a long trip and be good.
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  2. #12
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    Here is some information. Most pickup truck owners really don't experience what you have due to (like me) when traveling carry a couple of jugs in my GD. However
    class8 trucks have gone through this on many of occasion. As a retired driver I still keep my nose in the industry. It appears on the surface that many sensors and software will detect low quality DEF.....no it won't tell you low quality you will just get the notice. Granted a 13 liter diesel has a larger DEF tank and different software. Before I would let a dealer tell me this and that who just reads a computer... many drivers will clear the code. Don't hookup and jump on I75 but one can drive around short distance and evaluate the truck.The question remains why and did it happen at the pump and does the ram software detect complete def failure or is it really a low quality issue....The class 8 truck friends of mine with no driveability issues with the dash light on have reported going back to normal after bad def is diluted to a good def after many miles. Just a short bit of information. It is also a normal practice of dealers NOT to cover contamination issues, which dealers consider driver error. Best of luck...I mean that.

  3. #13
    Site Team WhittleBurner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by traveldawg View Post
    Call me a skeptic, but..... The DEF light came on BEFORE returning to the pump to get more DEF. So there was an issue BEFORE pumping DEF from the Pilot station.

    ..
    It's Murphys law for us, we fuel up and 10 miles down the road our low DEF warning comes on. We don't turn around tho, just stop at one of the next stations and get a couple boxes off the shelf.

    Almost like the truck knows we stopped for fuel and is messing with us, some days I can hear the truck chuckling at us
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  4. #14
    Seasoned Camper SteveTN's Avatar
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    Ram has a DEF gauge. I keep an eye on mine and when it drops to between 1/3 and 1/2 tank I put a 2.5 gal jug in it which pretty much fills it back up. Sorry to hear of your problems, Pilot is headquartered in Knoxville and have had issues over the years with less than stellar business practices. I have no idea if that is still the corporate culture now but if you want to go head to head with them make sure you dot all your i's and cross your t's.
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  5. #15
    Rolling Along LV Naturist's Avatar
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    Call me a skeptic as well. Cross contamination on the truck is not possible as the 2 systems are not interrelated in any way. They are 2 completely separate systems by design. DEF is injected in the exhaust stream way downstream from the engine. Cross contamination at the pump is similar again, as they are 2 completely separate systems, separate tank ports, and different delivery drivers and typically different companies.

    I would want to see the contaminated DEF personally and would request they test it for contamination in my presence. IAW show me! In my experience maintaining a large school bus fleet, we have never had bad DEF. We have had lots of codes for "Low Quality DEF", however it's always traced to either bad NOx sensors or a plugged DEF injector or mixer in the SCR. The Engine Control Module (ECM) will command a certain amount of DEF to be injected based on performance parameters. It then checks for the resultant decrease in NOx in the exhaust stream. If there is not a resultant decrease, it will increase the DEF until it can no longer do so. If at that point, the NOx is still out of parameter, the ECM thinks you must have bad DEF and throws a "Low Quality DEF" code. If the dealer is less than honorable, they may try to convince you that your DEF is contaminated, resulting in an expensive and unnecessary repair. Again, at the least, I would try a different dealer and get a second opinion.

    John

    P.S. One other point, DEF is mostly water. The DEF pump pulls from the bottom of the DEF tank. Diesel fuel would float on top of the DEF making it highly unlikely that even if fuel contaminated the tank it would be pulled into the system.
    Last edited by LV Naturist; 12-17-2020 at 11:44 AM. Reason: Added P.S.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bungy View Post
    Another good reason to do the def delete....
    Which can create other problems considering the EPA is cracking down heavily on deletes and will certainly affect any warranty that might be in effect. To the OP so sorry for this, what a mess to deal with. This is another reason I avoid pump DEF fill-ups, opting for container purchases.
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  7. #17
    Site Sponsor BeerBrewer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorvald View Post
    Sure can do, first understand I’m a nerd so actually testing DEf before I use it is fun to me lol! I’m a proud owner of a new Ram 3500 that has the dreaded CP4 fuel pump so I’m taking every single precaution I can to ensure nothing bad goes into this thing (Hot shots secret EDT treatment with every fill, using same gas station all the time when possible, taking photos and receipts, etc).

    I don’t use the DEF at fuel pumps nor do I use any third party DEF, I buy it straight from the Ram dealers as it has a date code in English, is good for a 2 year shelf life and I can test it before I use it. Also have receipt from a Ram dealer in case of a warranty claim. It’s just not worth the risk to save $9 from Walmart or some other place. DEF is cheap, servicing the system is not!

    -

    Motor City Mechanic has a good pair of videos on DEF and the various testers. Just don’t but the fancy tester if you can’t afford it, they are mostly made in China and are the same unit. So you can find the same one for $20-30 without a carry case. But I do like the one he uses as it has the case and other bits. Skip the test strips, they are garbage same as pool test strips. It’s very easy to use and only takes a moment.

    Tech talk #8 Part 1/2: Everything you need to know about DEF fluid

    https://youtu.be/Tvh7-KhGlzo


    Tech talk #8 Part 2/2: Everything you need to know about DEF fluid

    https://youtu.be/yBGlx4XefrM

    Wow!! What useful info! I was told that DEF goes bad in two years, but I had no idea that is dependent upon temperature! I also had no idea how expensive a DEF screwup can be. I usually buy Peak DEF in 2.5 Gal boxes. That said the last time was an off brand at Tractor Supply (it was all they had). Heck on occasion I have even purchased it at the pump at a rest stop...... I'll never to that again.

    I hate to steal this thread, but I was looking at the DEF test tools and I was wondering if they is a big difference between the $100 refractometer and $20 ones?

  8. #18
    Long Hauler huntindog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LV Naturist View Post

    P.S. One other point, DEF is mostly water. The DEF pump pulls from the bottom of the DEF tank. Diesel fuel would float on top of the DEF making it highly unlikely that even if fuel contaminated the tank it would be pulled into the system.
    This could only hold true, if the truck is stationary.

    Contrary to a common phrase...... Oil and water DO mix! Any one that has ever looked at a dipstick from a motor with a internal (head gasket etc.) leak can attest to this.
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  9. #19
    Rolling Along LV Naturist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntindog View Post
    This could only hold true, if the truck is stationary.

    Contrary to a common phrase...... Oil and water DO mix! Any one that has ever looked at a dipstick from a motor with a internal (head gasket etc.) leak can attest to this.
    I understand your point, but don't believe this is necessarily true. In the engine, the oil is constantly circulating so it keeps the coolant suspended. Coolant also binds with the additives, mostly the "detergents" in the oil used to keep contaminates suspended in the oil. The DEF system doesn't circulate. At least the systems I'm familiar with don't. The system (on the feed side) maintains about 125 psi and holds that pressure, pulling more DEF from the tank as needed. The only time the DEF returns to the tank is when you turn the key off. The system then purges the DEF out of the lines to prevent freeze damage in low temperatures. The only motion that would keep the fuel and DEF mixed is road vibration which I have my doubts would keep it mixed.

    John
    Last edited by LV Naturist; 12-17-2020 at 06:10 PM.
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  10. #20
    Long Hauler huntindog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LV Naturist View Post
    I understand your point, but don't believe this is necessarily true. In the engine, the oil is constantly circulating so it keeps the coolant suspended. Coolant also binds with the additives, mostly the "detergents" in the oil used to keep contaminates suspended in the oil. The DEF system doesn't circulate. The system (on the feed side) maintains about 125 psi and holds that pressure, pulling more DEF from the tank as needed. The only time the DEF returns to the tank is when you turn the key off. The system then purges the DEF out of the lines to prevent freeze damage in low temperatures. The only motion that would keep the fuel and DEF mixed is road vibration which I have my doubts would keep it mixed.

    John
    Then I guess the only way to prove it is to pour some junk in a DEF tank, and take the vehicle for a spin.
    Let me know how that works out for ya.
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