351M-R and Ram 2500 Cummins

[snicker1973]

Yeah, the 17,210 is the max tc of the truck. I did order the H rated tires on mine. The spec sheet does not show an increase in GVWR. I guess I will find out when it comes in. It seems to be difficult to get actual data from dealers or GD on this stuff, or I am not looking in the right place.

Thanks

[bertschb]

...I am questioning whether I have enough truck to do this.

Your current truck will PULL it easily. But, you will be exceeding your truck's payload rating - by a lot.

[Second Chance]

Yeah, the 17,210 is the max tc of the truck. I did order the H rated tires on mine. The spec sheet does not show an increase in GVWR. I guess I will find out when it comes in. It seems to be difficult to get actual data from dealers or GD on this stuff, or I am not looking in the right place.

Thanks

As has been stated several times - it's not about "towing capacity" with fifth wheels... it's all about payload. The RV is too much trailer for your truck.

Rob

[xrated]

As has been stated, the 2785 lb pin weight is an empty trailer...and I mean EMPTY. No propane or bottles, no battery or batteries, nothing in any of the water tanks....black, grey, or fresh. It will only go much higher from there once the tanks and propane and battery is installed, and then you start loading the trailer for camping. Almost everyone looks at the GVWR of the trailer (16,800 lbs) as the number to use when estimating the possibly pin weight for the trailer. The 20% number is used a lot, but many times that will be even higher.....22, 23, 25%. So even at a minimum of 20% times the 16,800 lb GVWR, you are at 3360 lbs of pin if the trailer is loaded to near or at the GVWR. Toys in the garage will normally lighten the pin a bit, but a lot less than you might think. Given the pin weight, the weight of the hitch, passengers in the truck, maybe a toolbox, firewood, etc, you could very easily be seeing 4000 lbs being put on the truck. Definitely not a 3/4T truck/2500 series truck for that camper. One ton minimum truck, and depending on the payload capacity, maybe even a Dually, especially if it is an older truck (not made in the last two years).

[Rgkeaney]

Hello all.

This is my first post on this site. Have done some research as to what is already posted on this forum in regards to this new thread. Just trying to make an informed decision on whether to upgrade my tow vehicle. We just made a down payment on a 2021 351M-R. Our present tow vehicle is a 2017 Ram 2500 with Cummins turbo diesel, crew cab, short bed. The vehicle is equipped with the air ride system on the rear axle. The tire loading sticker on the driver side door says cargo should not exceed 1943lbs. I know the pin weight of this is 2785. Yes, I see a problem even though I will be within the Max trailer weight of 17,210. TV base weight is 7617. The salesman at the rv dealership assured me we have enough truck to pull this trailer. However, after researching further (and it is clearly my bad for not doing more research before purchase) I am questioning whether I have enough truck to do this. So, before I run out and start looking for another tv, I would like to hear from those who may have gone through the same thing and what your experience has been with this match up of tv and hauler.

Snicker, I am not one who lives and dies by payload capacity rating. I am over my payload capacity pulling my 31MB with a 2016 Ram Cummins 2500. However, if you go and weight your trailer and tow vehicle, You obviously will be over payload but more importantly in my mind, also well over your rear axle limits. At this point, I would have to go upgrade my vehicle. You aren’t just a little over payload. You are really overwhelming that rig. I’m almost thinking that kind of hitch weight might even require a dually. But understand all those numbers first. Not just payloads but your axle and tires as well.


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[Overtaxed]

Well, are you in luck.

Been right where you are, 2019 F250 with a 2019 351M. And had a very long post about it, weights of the truck and trailer and my experience hauling it:
https://www.mygrandrv.com/forum/show...diesel-weights

Now, once you get done reading that tome, the short version. The 250 towed it "fine". The only thing I didn't like was the rear end felt a little "squirmy" when hard on the engine brake going downhill. Nothing ever happened that was upsetting, but I didn't like the feeling. I replaced the truck (which had about 5K miles on it... We call it the "two truck club") with a F450. The 450 is better, there's NO question about it. You'd be able to tell hauling the 351 a mile which truck you were in. Stable, better gear ratio for hauling, 8' bed so no worries about hitting anything on tight turns. It's better, significantly so, than the 250 was.

However, that said, I cannot in good conscience say your nuts for towing a 351M with a 250. I did it, and I never felt like I was doing something really dangerous. My 351M, genny, about 1/2 tanks, loaded to travel, was about 3000 lbs on the pin. It put me over on "yellow sticker" payload, and was about max on the rear axle (white sticker). You will be over on payload based on the yellow sticker, no question about it at all. What that means to you, and how worried about it you are, that's totally up to you. If you're going to do it, inflate the tires to the max sidewall rating (NOT what's specified in the truck)!

The one area of disagreement I have, if you're going to get another truck, don't get a SRW 350. You're paying for a new sticker and not a whole lot else. The 250 and 350 SRW are nearly identical in every way that matter for towing (except for the sticker). A 250 with airbags is going to tow better than a 350 SRW without bags, I'd do that before I went to a 350SRW. If you're getting a new truck, get a dually; you'll buy comfort and safety instead of a "new sticker" and "legal" (which is very much open for debate what that even does for you).

The 250, honestly, should not exist. It's only purpose is for states like where I happen to live (SC) where taxes are MUCH cheaper on a 250 (because it's <11K GVWR) than a 350 or dually. If you don't live in those states, there's no reason for a 250 vs a 350SRW, they are that similar. It exists to beat registration costs (for the few states that have it like I do, and it's a BIG number, my 450 is close to 2,000 dollars more per year to register!) and frankly, because people keep buying them. What would make sense would be 150->350SRW->450DRW. Those are the "classes" of truck. A 350DRW and 450 are so close to one another there's no reason for them both to exist, and the 250 and 350 are also basically identical.

Good luck, and let us know what you wind up doing!

[Spartacus]

@ Overtaxed, so correct me on this one but don't the 350 have more payload than the 450 with it being more heavier?

[Overtaxed]

@ Overtaxed, so correct me on this one but don't the 350 have more payload than the 450 with it being more heavier?

Yes, they do. However, this answer, like that on a 250 class truck, requires some discussion.

What can handle more weight, a 350 dually vs a 450? The answer, if you're interested in actual safety/reliability/tire life/etc is a 450. The answer is your asking "which has a sticker with a bigger number on it" is a 350. So, if having the biggest possible number on a sticker is what matters, get a 350 dually gas engine, that's going to have the best payload. If you're looking instead for "what's the safest and most comfortable way to tow my big RV" get a 450 diesel. Yes, it will have less payload, but it's also a more capable towing machine.

The issue here is that the F450, like the F250 is a "class limited" truck. Ford puts a sticker on those two trucks that does not reflect the max capabilities of the components. They put a sticker on the truck that has the highest number they can put on the truck to keep it in the "class" they want it in. Both of them are "registration/insurance/licensing" beaters. A 250 SRW is roughly 1/2 the cost to register in my state (SC) compared to a 350 SRW, and the gap could be over $1000/yr for a 250 vs 350SRW. That's why the 250 exists (well, and because people keep buying it), it's to have a 350 with a lower GVWR so it can be classified differently and get better registration and insurance rates. If I have my 450 for 10 years, it might cost me 10K more in taxes/registration compared to my 250 did because of this; which, should pretty quickly explain why in SC you see so many 250s!

The 450 is the same thing, if you go over 14K GVWR on the "sticker" you get into issues with insurance and licensing, they rate it at 14K because that's the breakpoint for moving up into the next class which, for some people, would cause issues and get them to buy something else. The 14K on the 450 or the 9.9K on my 250 don't reflect mechanical capabilities, they reflect "what's the right number to get low priced insurance/taxation".

But if you got a 350 dually and a 450 and dropped 6-8K in both bed (overloading them), the 450 is going to do better with it, the tires are rated higher, the axle is rated higher, the brakes are bigger, etc. And same thing diesel/gas, if you build 2 identical 450's, one diesel with a 5K payload rating and one gas with a 6K payload rating and put something with a 6K pin weight ("overloading" the diesel), I'd still take the diesel all day long for the engine brake and additional power. It's going to do better with the "overload" than the "correctly loaded" but, in actual practice, "less capable" truck.

Yes, trust me, I'm aware that this is a ridiculous situation. I see the advise all the time on other boards "Get the 350 dually, you'll have more payload" and just bang my head off the desk. While technically true, it's also completely missing the forest through the trees. I feel like if I peeled the sticker off a 350 dually and put it on a go kart, some of those folks would tell me I can handle more weight on my new go kart than I can on my 450 because "the sticker says so". The sticker matters for registration and if you get weighed (which, as far as I can tell, has just about "never" happened to someone towing an RV). The axles/brakes/tires/engine matter if you're, well, actually towing something heavy.

Now, all that said, while the situation is really bad on the 250 diesel (you can have less payload on a 250 diesel than a 150, which, of course, is patently ridiculous) on the 450 vs 350 DRW, it really does not matter. They both have "enough" payload for just about any RV made. You won't be "over sticker" on either of them, so, while the 350 does have a bigger number, you really don't need it to tow anything made by Grand Design.

The F450 is the best tow vehicle that's a pickup truck made by Ford. If you can live with the downsides (taxes/registration/insurance/limited tire selection), and are going to be towing a lot, look no further, it's the best thing they make for that use that still had a pickup bed from the factory. The "stickers" don't make the truck (anymore than the "clothes make the man").

[Spartacus]

Wow, this is very good in all of my dealing with about the different between the 350 and the 450 dually I have never heard it explain like this, this is very informative and I'm sure that only who didn't know would appreciate this, thank you sir for explaining this. If I ever get a bigger 5th wheel I would think about going to the 450.

[Overtaxed]

Wow, this is very good in all of my dealing with about the different between the 350 and the 450 dually I have never heard it explain like this, this is very informative and I'm sure that only who didn't know would appreciate this, thank you sir for explaining this. If I ever get a bigger 5th wheel I would think about going to the 450.

Your welcome. It's a crying shame that it's not more common knowledge/printed on the stickers/etc, honestly, this "under rating to meet class" should be illegal IMHO. Tell me what the truck can do safely, not what a class 4 vehicle can weigh. I can look that up in a book!

I'm very happy with my 450. I do want to say, a 350 DRW would easily tow my rig as well, but the 450 does provide a little more margin and, in an emergency, the more margin you have, the more likely you are to come away safely (hopefully by avoiding the accident entirely).