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  1. #11
    Rolling Along Tigger1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkayak View Post
    Congratulations on not being pulled down the Airstream Forum rabbit hole! Emailing Andy is an excellent idea. Before doing so I think I'll remeasure everything on a very flat surface. I might also revisit the Cat scale.
    Great WDH explanation and simple to understand!

    You are doing a good job being proactive with your weights & measures for the sake of safety which is important. Good idea to do some more measurements before throwing in the towel on the E2. It does appear to be giving you good sway control but with the tightly-tuned suspension of the Cayenne, you may actually not be able to transfer much more weight. I guess this is another place where Andy T. might be helpful. I saw that he regularly posts on the thread you referenced.

    Given one of your concerns is not maxing the tongue weight, you might consider purchasing a Sherline tongue weight scale. I have had one for years and use it on/off when I’m dialing in or rearranging weight in the trailer. It is accurate and saves from going to the CAT scale each time.
    https://www.sherline.com/product/she...-weight-scale/

    I hope that you give an update with your findings and perhaps what Andy T. recommends for the benefit of future Grand Design members that have a similar tow vehicle.
    2010 Tundra SR5 DC 5.7L 4x4
    2020 Imagine XLS 22MLE
    Andersen WDH
    Dexter E-Z Flex Suspension Kit
    2018 Rockwood Mini Lite 2104s
    2014 Jayco x17z Hybrid

  2. #12
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    We did some careful measurements of fender height today, using a yardstick instead of a wobbly tape measure and we were on more level surfaces. My wife and I carefully sighted as precisely as possible and agreed on each height to within about 1/16". Then we averaged the right and left sides since they sometimes differed slightly. We had a full tank of gas, no passengers, and the rig was generally loaded to camp but dry and without food. It was originally set up by General RV in new but empty condition. Looking back, I believe they came fairly close, but loading it up required an adjustment.

    We measured the Cayenne alone (with shank and load bars) and repeated measurements hitched, then with load bars in place. The front fenders didn't drop at least halfway back to unloaded height as Fastway recommends, so we then raised the L-brackets on the A-Frame by one bolt hole (1") and repeated our measurements. Here's the result of the day’s work..

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Unloaded, the Cayenne started out 1/4” higher in the rear, probably because it was empty and it's designed to carry its cargo more toward the rear. Hitching the trailer dropped the rear and raised the front, as expected. Then adding the load bars dropped the front somewhat (buy not by 50%) and raise the rear similarly. Unbolting and raising the L-brackets, which lifts the rear of the load bars by 1", brought the Cayenne to a perfectly level condition. The trailer still looks level as well --- my phone says the A-frame is at zero degrees on a reasonably level parking lot.

    We'll make another stop by the scale next time out, but I'm confident the WDH is dialed in perfectly. It feels a bit more planted but was never bad before, maybe because we're not pushing our towing capacity limits. The bars make more noise turning because there's more force pressing them down onto the L-brackets, so sway control should be even better. I'll post our final weight distribution numbers when available.
    Last edited by dkayak; 05-21-2021 at 07:19 PM.
    Dave and Cathy
    2017 Porsche Cayenne S
    2021 Imagine 17MKE

  3. #13
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    Yesterday we towed the trailer to Discount Tire to change the Westlakes to Goodyear Endurance. Along the way we stopped at the same Cat Scale we used for the data at the top of this thread. Unlike the first trip, the trailer had no bottled water, no food in the frig, and the Cayenne had no bikes or tools in the back, so overall things were a couple hundred pounds lighter this time. Here's the result, comparing the original WDH setting to our current setup with the spring bars raised 1" (as described in the post above).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The tongue weight of 600 lb is a bit higher than the previous 560 lb because the missing food and six gallons of water rode at the back of the trailer last time, lightening the tongue. The spring bars put 60 lb (net) of the tongue weight on the steering axle and 140 lb onto the trailer axle, leaving 400 lb on the Cayenne's rear axle. Note that the shift in steering axle weight from just hitched to installing the spring bars is 300 lb! We're still 158 lb under the Cayenne's front axle rating because ours has a V6 but it's designed to accommodate a V8.

    Our WDH shank, head, ball, and spring bars weigh 66 lb. From what I've read, this 66 lb should be added to the measured tongue weight at the coupler for comparison to the Cayenne's 616 lb (or 770 lb?) TW limit, since that's what rides on the receiver. Loading for most of our trips will give us about 550 lb tongue weight, so adding the WDH weight puts us right at the lower of the (ambiguous) TW limits and at 10% of trailer weight. Additional loading consists of 100 lb on the bumper (for a receiver, rack, and two 19 lb bikes), typically 6 gallon jugs of water in the shower, 30 lb of stuff in the frig, and 80-100 lb of gear in the pass through. We now have 400 lb of unused cargo capacity in the back of the TV, though I can't imagine carrying over 100 lb there, maybe just firewood & misc stuff. Whatever we add to the back of the TV will probably bring the steering axle closer to its unhitched weight.

    As noted in another recent thread, SUV's are typically limited by tongue weight and that's certainly our situation. Overall maybe this is as good as it gets, with the Cayenne perfectly level and plenty of margin for additional cargo in either it or the trailer, as long as we keep an eye on trailer fore-aft load distribution. My wife noted we've eliminated traces of porpoising, but also that the ride is a bit harsher. It feels very solid and stable, but is now more truck-like than SUV-like. The only other change I can think of would be to replace our 800 lb spring bars with 600 lb bars, but would this even make a perceptible difference?

    FWIW, I ran across a useful tool, an online calculator that makes interpreting scale results easy. Travel Trailer Weights
    Dave and Cathy
    2017 Porsche Cayenne S
    2021 Imagine 17MKE

  4. #14
    Rolling Along Tigger1's Avatar
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    @dkayak

    So from your latest weighs (I think I read them right) this is what I get:

    (Steer axle, drive axle, trailer axle)
    Weigh ticket 1: 2840, 3040, 4780 (WDH engaged)
    Weigh ticket 2: 2540, 3480, 4640 (WDH dis-engaged)
    Weigh ticket 3: 2780, 2640 (Cayenne only)

    GCWR from Cayenne manual ?
    GCW (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 10660

    GVWR Cayenne 6305
    GVW (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 5880

    GAWR Front 2998
    GAW Front (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 2840

    GAWR Rear 3726
    GAW Rear (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 3040

    Tongue Weight Max 617 or 770 ?
    Tongue Weight (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 600
    (Weigh ticket 2: Steer + Drive Axles - Weight ticket 3: Steer + Drive Axles)

    Trailer GVWR 6395
    Trailer GVW 5240
    (Tongue weight + Weigh ticket 2: Trailer Axle)

    With WDH engaged you’re transferring 300# to steer axle and 140# to trailer axle

    Observations:
    The weight of the WDH is included in the 600# tongue weight

    Not sure why you are experiencing harsher driving? Maybe the bars are actually too tight?

    What is the Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) for your Cayenne? It may be in your Owner’s Manual.
    Last edited by Tigger1; 05-27-2021 at 05:37 PM.
    2010 Tundra SR5 DC 5.7L 4x4
    2020 Imagine XLS 22MLE
    Andersen WDH
    Dexter E-Z Flex Suspension Kit
    2018 Rockwood Mini Lite 2104s
    2014 Jayco x17z Hybrid

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger1 View Post
    @dkayak

    So from your latest weighs (I think I read them right) this is what I get:

    (Steer axle, drive axle, trailer axle)
    Weigh ticket 1: 2840, 3040, 4780 (WDH engaged)
    Weigh ticket 2: 2540, 3480, 4640 (WDH dis-engaged)
    Weigh ticket 3: 2780, 2640 (Cayenne only)

    GCWR from Cayenne manual ?
    GCW (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 10660

    GVWR Cayenne 6305
    GVW (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 5880

    GAWR Front 2998
    GAW Front (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 2840

    GAWR Rear 3726
    GAW Rear (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 3040

    Tongue Weight Max 617 or 770 ?
    Tongue Weight (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 600
    (Weigh ticket 2: Steer + Drive Axles - Weight ticket 3: Steer + Drive Axles)

    Trailer GVWR 6395
    Trailer GVW 5240
    (Tongue weight + Weigh ticket 2: Trailer Axle)

    With WDH engaged you’re transferring 300# to steer axle and 140# to trailer axle

    Observations:
    The weight of the WDH is included in the 600# tongue weight

    Not sure why you are experiencing harsher driving? Maybe the bars are actually too tight?

    What is the Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) for your Cayenne? It may be in your Owner’s Manual.
    I'm struggling to see how the WDH could be included the 600 lb since it remained attached to the receiver (along with the spring bars) for all 3 scale measurements. How would it be distinguished from the weight of the spare tire, muffler, or bumper for example? It's just part of the car at that point. If I buy a Sherline scale and weigh the trailer resting on the coupler, the WDH hanging on the car won't be measured. That's why I assumed it should be added back in for comparison to the tongue weight limit. Or maybe it should just ignored as "part of the car", but it does hang on the receiver. Since the true limit is probably 770 lb, ignoring it is safe. This all gets very confusing. Maybe I need a little more wine this evening to make sense of it. LOL

    I wouldn't call it overly harsh. It's just that we noticed more "firmness" than with the first settings. I suspect it's more a matter of the first setting having too little pressure on the bars and thus too little weight transferred. The Fastway instructions say if you pull the front fender down "at least halfway" back down to its unhitched level, you have it right. The first setting was less than halfway down and the 2nd setting was slightly lower than the original height (ref Post #12 ).

    The GCWR is 14,021 lb per the manual, from the table with the other limits.
    Last edited by dkayak; 05-27-2021 at 06:23 PM.
    Dave and Cathy
    2017 Porsche Cayenne S
    2021 Imagine 17MKE

  6. #16
    Rolling Along Tigger1's Avatar
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    If you get a Sherline scale and weigh the tongue you will need to add to that number the combined weights of the shank, head, ball, and bars (66#). The frame brackets for the bars will already be in the Sherline weight.

    When you were at the CAT scale with the WDH engaged, the entire weight of the WDH was included in the tongue weight.
    2010 Tundra SR5 DC 5.7L 4x4
    2020 Imagine XLS 22MLE
    Andersen WDH
    Dexter E-Z Flex Suspension Kit
    2018 Rockwood Mini Lite 2104s
    2014 Jayco x17z Hybrid

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