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  1. #1
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    converting to Lithium

    Hello,

    Forgive me if this is redundant. I have a '21 Imagine XLS with 2 100W solar panels and a Renogy Wanderer charge controller installed. I installed this kit: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    I still have the stock WFCO power center and LA batteries. I want to upgrade to Li batteries, but am a little confused on what else I need. Do I need a new power center, and would that make my current charge controller redundant? I am also wondering if I need to add more solar- I plan to install an inverter (probably mostly for TV when we are boondocking). Are my 2 100W panels adequate if I replaced my 2 LA batteries with 2 lithium batteries? Would adding 2 more panels be a good idea? I would probably be using the TV for a max of 2 hours a day using the inverter. I have been using solar for a long time on 2 different trailers for boondocking, but upgrading to Lithium seems complicated. Love the forum, have already used it a ton! thanks in advance.

    Matt

  2. #2
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    "Do I need a new power center?" - Sort of. Your stock power center will charge lithium batteries to about 85-90%. Replacing it with one designed for lithium batteries will charge them to 100%. Progressive Dynamics are well known and respected. To further muddy the waters, some inverters come with built in lithium capable battery chargers so if you put one of them in you could stick with your current power center and still charge the lithium batteries to 100%.

    "would that make my current charge controller redundant?" - No, the solar controller monitors the batteries and, if needed, charges them with power from the solar panels. In fact if there is enough sun the solar controller and the solar panels will charge the batteries to 100% so a new Power Center is not needed. This all depends on the size of the batteries, how many solar panels you install, how much power you use and how much sun there is.

    "Are my 2 100W panels adequate if I replaced my 2 LA batteries with 2 lithium batteries? Would adding 2 more panels be a good idea?" - Again, this all depends on too many factors for there to be a yes or no answer. Upgrading to lithium and solar is complicated. Hope these answers have helped rather than confused.

    If you want better answers you will have to provide more information (what size batteries, how many more panels, what all you want to run off of the inverter, etc.) and then hopefully some more knowledgeable users can help you out.
    Either way, good luck.
    Last edited by alias100; 10-25-2021 at 10:38 PM. Reason: I had misnamed Progressive Dynamics
    2021 Imagine XLS 22RBE
    2021 Ram 2500 Hemi, Crew Cab Short Bed
    2-206 AH SOK Batteries, Victron MultiPlus 3000VA Inverter, 800 watts solar

  3. #3
    Site Sponsor SolarPoweredRV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gogreenwave View Post
    Hello,

    Forgive me if this is redundant. I have a '21 Imagine XLS with 2 100W solar panels and a Renogy Wanderer charge controller installed. I installed this kit: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    I still have the stock WFCO power center and LA batteries. I want to upgrade to Li batteries, but am a little confused on what else I need. Do I need a new power center, and would that make my current charge controller redundant? I am also wondering if I need to add more solar- I plan to install an inverter (probably mostly for TV when we are boondocking). Are my 2 100W panels adequate if I replaced my 2 LA batteries with 2 lithium batteries? Would adding 2 more panels be a good idea? I would probably be using the TV for a max of 2 hours a day using the inverter. I have been using solar for a long time on 2 different trailers for boondocking, but upgrading to Lithium seems complicated. Love the forum, have already used it a ton! thanks in advance.

    Matt
    Like Alias100 said above: "It all depends"...

    First, I would like to ask you a couple of questions...

    How has your current system been working out for you with your current camping style?

    How long are your Boondocking for?

    I ask these questions because you already have experience with both your camping style and your Solar system. If your current setup is working fairly well for you then switching to Lithium batteries (LiFePo4) will be a pretty straight forward proposition.

    Simply replace your current batteries with the Lithium batteries and upgrade your Converter to a Lithium compatible Converter ( I recommend the Progressive Dynamics Converters).

    If your Converter is part of your Power Center, Progressive Dynamics makes a "Drop-In" replacement.

    I presume you are planning on installing two 100 ah Lithium batteries. This will double the energy storage you currently have available from your LA batteries. I would recommend Boondocking with your new batteries and your current Solar system (be certain to switch the Solar Charge Controller to Lithium batteries) to determine if your new setup meets your Boondocking needs.

    As far as adding an Inverter to your system goes, based on your TV usage, a 1,000 Watt (or 2,000 Watt), Pure Sine Wave, Inverter would meet your stated needs, and then some (can also make coffee in the mornings). How you choose to wire your Inverter into your coach is subject matter for another Forum Post altogether.

    I wouldn't upgrade your Solar panels until you see how they perform with your new batteries and Inverter.

    One thing I would recommend you consider, before, adding more 100 Watt panels is, whether or not, you might want even more Solar Wattage on your roof in the future. I only mention this because you are probably limited as to how much Wattage your Solar Charge Controller can handle and you might be better off upgrading now before you lock yourself into more 100 Watt panels. For example: you could buy a single 325 (+/-) Watt panel along with another charge controller for slightly more than what the two 100 Watt panels would cost and still have capacity for a second 325 (+/-) Solar panel in the future. If you make this decision, you do not need to replace your existing controller, you can simply add the new Solar panel and controller into your existing cabling (connection is made at the 12 volt buss bar or the battery, not on the roof).
    Last edited by SolarPoweredRV; 10-26-2021 at 12:54 AM.
    David and Peggy
    2019 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.7L Diesel, Dually, Long Bed
    Running with 20k Reese Goosebox (Love It) and Ford Factory "Puck" system.
    Stopping with 8,000 lb Disc Brakes and Titan Hydraulic over Electric Brakes system.
    Powering all this fun with 1200 Watts of Solar, two Tesla, Model S, battery modules, 24 volt Victron Inverter.
    2018 Solitude 310 GK

  4. #4
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    Not sure what batteries you are considering, but check out SOK. I bought the 206AH battery for $1,024 earlier this year. I still have the stock panel converter/charger and it's been fine as an interim to getting solar and inverter setup next year. I know the stock panel charges slower and only gets the battery to 75% according to my Victron battery monitor, but so far that's still a lot better than my wet cell or AGMs that I've had before. I just dry camped for 3 days using the furnace (MN), lights, and running a 12v box fan all night (white noise and keeping air moving) before the battery died in the night after we got back home. I wanted it to run down so I could calibrate it from 0%. But understand that I do not have an inverter yet so this was only running 12v appliances. Hope that's helpful.
    Chad
    2023 23LDE 965W Solar, Victron Multiplus, Solar Controllers, Cerbo GX, 4x280AH DIY Lithium Batteries, SeeLevel Tank Monitoring, Shock Absorbers (Replaced 2022 22MLE)
    2022 F350 6.7L Superduty, Carbonized Gray, Ultimate Lariat Pkg, 4WD, Crew Cab, 160" Wheelbase, 3.55EL Rear End, 3566# Payload
    Adaptive Steering, Ultimate Camera Pkg, 20" Wheels, 397 Amp Dual Alternator, ARE Topper (Replaced 2004 F150)

  5. #5
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    Thank you all for the responses, great info! It does clarify things a bit. I think I will not do anything to my solar just yet. I do like the idea of getting higher watt panels eventually, rather than adding more panels to my roof. Renogy makes 200W panels, and my charge controller can handle up to 400W so I could upgrade 1 or both panels. We have 2 young children, so currently our camping trips are 3-4 days of boondocking. We do 1-2 longer trips, but those are usually with hookups. With years of learning and now a trailer with all LEDs, we conserve power well. But I would like to be able to watch TV, and use other things like fan, coffee maker, etc and charge devices (which we already do). I am thinking of around 200 AH of battery(s).

    So my eventual goal is to have ~200AH of Li battery, a 2000W inverter, and 400W of solar. Is that realistic with our uses above?

    Here's my plan (please let me know if the order should change):
    1) install the inverter (after much more research on where to install it) with the current LA batt setup. If this meets our needs, maybe an hour of TV a day, use this until the stock LA reach the end of their life. OR stop using the inverter until we upgrade batteries
    2) upgrade batteries, use existing solar/power control to see if it meets our needs
    3) upgrade solar- add a 200W panel to existing 2 100W panels (or replace). if more is needed, replace 100 W panels, and replace/add controller.

    any thoughts?

    Thanks!

    Matt

  6. #6
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    Also, would a 1000W inverter be better for me, or would that just limit me in the future.

    Thanks!

    Matt

  7. #7
    Site Sponsor SolarPoweredRV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gogreenwave View Post
    Also, would a 1000W inverter be better for me, or would that just limit me in the future.

    Thanks!

    Matt
    If you are a savvy shopper, there isn't much difference in the cost of a 1000 Watt Inverter and a 2000 Watt Inverter. I'd go for the 2000 Watt Inverter.
    David and Peggy
    2019 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.7L Diesel, Dually, Long Bed
    Running with 20k Reese Goosebox (Love It) and Ford Factory "Puck" system.
    Stopping with 8,000 lb Disc Brakes and Titan Hydraulic over Electric Brakes system.
    Powering all this fun with 1200 Watts of Solar, two Tesla, Model S, battery modules, 24 volt Victron Inverter.
    2018 Solitude 310 GK

  8. #8
    Setting Up Camp
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    Input on my lithium plans?

    I am also headed down the path of replacing the 2 flooded lead acid batteries with 2 100 amp hour lithium batteries and hoping for comments about my approach:

    Camping style: hoping to go up to 6 days boondocking - we have achieved this on the water / waste side - looking to do the same on the electrical side - we travel with a Honda EU2000i generator / inverter which I am willing to run on a daily basis if needed. I recently purchased a Renogy 200 watt solar suitcase as an alternate to recharge the batteries.

    Goal: Increase battery capacity to use 12v lighting, water pump, using propane furnace, refrigerator and and still have enough power to run the slides in and use front landing gear when it is time to break camp. Twice on the last trip we had to direct connect the 12v output on the EU2000i to the batteries to have enough power to pull all of the slides in.

    Other thoughts:
    I don't think we really need an inverter for our camping style as I am willing to use the EU2000i to run the microwave or induction cooktop unit if needed.
    Biggest benefits of lithium batteries is greater capacity for the weight & space.
    Would change existing charger to lithium compatible - this in conjunction with the lithium batteries would provide much faster charging using the solar suitcase or the generator.
    Would install the batteries in the front compartment and purchase batteries with internal heaters or purchase & install 12V battery heating pads.
    I would DYI.

    Questions:
    If I purchase batteries with a Bluetooth battery management system do I need a separate (Victron) BMS?
    Do I need additional shut-off switches and fuses?
    My existing batteries charge thru the 7 pin connector when I am traveling. Do I need to do anything different for the lithium if I am willing to accept the this approach will get them to 80ish% full?

    Many thanks in advance for your comments.
    Keith & Kate
    Central Ohio
    2015 Reflection 27RL 5th Wheel
    2016 Ford F250XL Diesel Crew Cab SRW 4x4

  9. #9
    Setting Up Camp
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    If ya'll haven't been introduced to Will Prowse yet, you might want to check out his site and YouTube channel. His recommendations are published here.
    Jeff
    2021 30G Toy Hauler
    2021 RAM 2500 6.7L HD

  10. #10
    Site Sponsor SolarPoweredRV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluSpyderMan View Post
    I am also headed down the path of replacing the 2 flooded lead acid batteries with 2 100 amp hour lithium batteries and hoping for comments about my approach:

    Camping style: hoping to go up to 6 days boondocking - we have achieved this on the water / waste side - looking to do the same on the electrical side - we travel with a Honda EU2000i generator / inverter which I am willing to run on a daily basis if needed. I recently purchased a Renogy 200 watt solar suitcase as an alternate to recharge the batteries.

    Goal: Increase battery capacity to use 12v lighting, water pump, using propane furnace, refrigerator and and still have enough power to run the slides in and use front landing gear when it is time to break camp. Twice on the last trip we had to direct connect the 12v output on the EU2000i to the batteries to have enough power to pull all of the slides in.

    Other thoughts:
    I don't think we really need an inverter for our camping style as I am willing to use the EU2000i to run the microwave or induction cooktop unit if needed.
    Biggest benefits of lithium batteries is greater capacity for the weight & space.
    Would change existing charger to lithium compatible - this in conjunction with the lithium batteries would provide much faster charging using the solar suitcase or the generator.
    Would install the batteries in the front compartment and purchase batteries with internal heaters or purchase & install 12V battery heating pads.
    I would DYI.

    Questions:
    If I purchase batteries with a Bluetooth battery management system do I need a separate (Victron) BMS?
    Do I need additional shut-off switches and fuses?
    My existing batteries charge thru the 7 pin connector when I am traveling. Do I need to do anything different for the lithium if I am willing to accept the this approach will get them to 80ish% full?

    Many thanks in advance for your comments.
    Your question regarding Shut-off Switches and fuses is a good one, I would recommend a shut-off switch to completely disconnect the batteries during storage. With Lithium Batteries you have a lot of energy that can be delivered very fast, so I would also recommend a "Catastrophic" fuse be placed at, or near (within 6 inches), of the positive battery terminal. In your case, without an inverter, a 100 amp fuse would probably be sufficient (this would cover both your discharge and charging amperage).

    I am a little bit concerned that buying heated batteries might be wasted money. Unless you are doing a lot of camping in cold weather and you have some very cold nights followed by days that do not warm up, your internal battery temps should not get to 32 degrees, or lower. You can discharge your batteries down to 0 degrees, you just can't charge them unless they are above 32 degrees. If you normally camp in these conditions, then I would suggest a heated mat versus the higher priced heated batteries, this opens you to more battery options that could save you some money.

    As far as purchasing an additional BMS for your system, you will not need one if each battery has one internally.

    The issue of using your truck to charge your Lithium batteries is less about how much charge you can get from the truck, but, more about protecting your Alternator from being fried by the draw from the batteries. Unlike Lead Acid batteries, Lithium batteries can suck up a lot of juice very fast and your truck's alternator was not designed to supply that much energy for a sustained period (this is the main reason I eliminated charging from my truck). Some people still charge from their truck, this video from Victron explains why this is not a very good idea:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgoIocPgOug

    If you still want to charge from your truck, you can install a DC to DC Converter on your truck that will limit the current draw from the truck, additionally, you can get a full charge on your batteries using this approach.

    Overall, based on what you have said your usage will be, I would guess that you should be able to easily go four days without needing to charge the batteries and if you happen to be running your generator for some other reason, you should almost never need to run the generator (especially, if you deploy your Solar suitcase) just to charge the batteries because they will be getting a pretty good charge every time you run the generator for some other reason.

    However, I would recommend that you ensure the batteries are fully charged for storage, they will just last longer because Lithium batteries like to be charged to 100%.
    David and Peggy
    2019 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.7L Diesel, Dually, Long Bed
    Running with 20k Reese Goosebox (Love It) and Ford Factory "Puck" system.
    Stopping with 8,000 lb Disc Brakes and Titan Hydraulic over Electric Brakes system.
    Powering all this fun with 1200 Watts of Solar, two Tesla, Model S, battery modules, 24 volt Victron Inverter.
    2018 Solitude 310 GK

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