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Thread: Towing a Momentum 395ms
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05-15-2022, 11:17 PM #21
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I really hoped this discussion was over, but I guess not.
This has nothing to do with machismo. That is insulting. It is all about facts versus opinions.
First, I recommend you read the actual towing spec. The information you mentioned is in there. The article was provided only for an overview.
Second, the point about single front tires is a discussion about failure modes and reliability. It may make a DRW owner feel better to have another set of tires in the back, but it doesn't really improve the total system reliability as long as there are other factors that dominate. The two single tires in the front are going to be the dominant failure mode.
Third, the comment on the 50% higher failure rate was related to just more parts to fail. It was also an attempt at humor, hence the smiley face.
Fourth, engineers most definitely do not design to the "legal bounds as close as possible." They design to pass the test to the desired limit. That is the whole reason that SAE J2807 was put in place.
I don't have anything against DRW trucks, they have their place in the market. That place gets smaller and smaller every year as truck designs improve and the gap between SRW and DRW decreases. It is not "silly" to examine the data, read the specs, look at the actual designs, and then draw an informed conclusion.
The requirement is to be safe, not safer. That logic drives to the conclusion you need a Freightliner. If you have any facts that support that the SRW design is not safe when used within the design limits I would like to see them. Something that says all those tests, specs, and designs are wrong and there really is an issue with towing within the specs.Last edited by BobKilmer; 05-16-2022 at 01:55 AM.
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05-16-2022, 04:55 AM #22
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So much discussion.....some good, some not so much. I'm going to try and pare it down to what really, really matters when towing....pretty much any trailer, but especially a 5th Wheel Camping type trailer....
With a 5th Wheel Camping trailer, in almost 100% of the time, payload capacity will become the most important capacity rating out of all the truck's ratings. That includes GVWR, GCVWR, FAWR, RAWR, Towing Capacity of the truck, Tire Load Capacity.
So without further ado, it is going to boil down to this. When you hook up your 5th wheel camping trailer to the truck you have chosen...and the pin weight of the trailer, the weight of the hitch itself, anything and everything that you put in/on the truck....passengers, extra fuel, firewood, a bed full of bowling balls,...it doesn't matter....but EVERYTHING that goes in/on the truck and the pin weight and the weight of the hitch, MUST NOT EXCEED the available payload capacity of the truck.....it really is that simple. If it can be accomplished with a SRW truck, you are good to go. If it cannot, you need to be looking for a smaller trailer or a truck with more payload capacity....it really is that simple.
Order of progression for overloading a truck.
1. If you exceed the payload number of the truck, yes, you are obviously in an overloaded truck.
2. If you exceed the payload number of the truck, you are automatically over the GVWR of the truck.....sorry folks, that's the way it works. I didn't make that up, I'm just passing along the info.
3. The next item to exceed the capacities, if you keep adding weight to the truck will become the axle rated capacity. In order to do that, you will have exceeded the truck's payload and GVWR.
4. If you keep adding weight, and you have exceeded the payload, GVWR, and axle rating, the tires are next. They are the last thing on the list of capacities to be overloaded. Of course, towing capacity will also be exceeded somewhere in that mix, but for this discussion, I'm talking about 5th WHEEL CAMPING trailers.....not flat bed utility trailers, goosenecks, or horse trailers.
In order to tow safely, you have to stay within ALL of the tow ratings that the truck has.....payload, GVWR, GCVWR, FAWR, RAWR, Tire Load Ratings and actual tow rating. You don't get to chose with one or two of the ratings you can exceed and be OK....they all have to be within their ratings and not exceeded. If anyone of them are, YOU ARE OVERLOADED.
And just as a reminder.....everything I posted above is ASSUMING that we are talking about a stock truck, with stock tires. Changing out any of the stock components may affect those capacities....they may make it worse, but they are never going to make any of the ratings better....at least not better in a productive way. For instance, if you go with a new tire that has a high load capacity rating than stock, just remember that if you NEEDED a higher rated tire than stock because of the weight you are carrying, you've already gone over the payload capacity, the GVWR of the truck, and the axle weight rating. If you put on air bags and think you've increased the payload of the truck, you haven't. In fact, you just lost some payload capacity from the weight of the airbags and the hardware that it took to put them on (not much, but technically, some weight). Payload and GVWRs of a truck cannot be changed unless it is done by a certified upfitter that is allowed by law to legally change those numbers based on the certified work that they have done.Last edited by xrated; 05-16-2022 at 05:06 AM.
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05-16-2022, 06:01 AM #23
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Second, the point about single front tires is a discussion about failure modes and reliability. It may make a DRW owner feel better to have another set of tires in the back, but it doesn't really improve the total system reliability as long as there are other factors that dominate. The two single tires in the front are going to be the dominant failure mode.
@xrated: On my 250, the first thing I exceeded (and the only number that was over actually) was GVWR. This, of course, is because the 250 is class limited; the GVWR is set not by mechanical capabilities but because "9,900 is the right answer". My tires were within limits (close, but within). My axle, when I looked it up, was actually rated much higher than either the tires or the GVWR. Given the very limited mechanical differences between a 250 and 350 SRW, it's obvious at that point that it's not a mechanical limit, it's a legal limit. IIRC, my tires were rated for 3750 lbs/tire, my axle was over 10K, but the sticker on the truck had my RAWR at around 6000 (6400 comes to mind). I was over on RAWR, but not on the axle or tires, which is why I towed that way for some time, if the tires and axle are rated to handle it, it seemed obvious that the real issue wasn't capabilities, it was "class".
I don't have anything against DRW trucks, they have their place in the market. That place gets smaller and smaller every year as truck designs improve and the gap between SRW and DRW decreases. It is not "silly" to examine the data, read the specs, look at the actual designs, and then draw an informed conclusion.
I'd love to see the "death of the dually" so long as it was replaced with something as good that didn't have all the downsides. And there are quite a few downsides, duallies aren't fun to park, they require more care driving on tight roads, the tires cost a lot and weigh a ton and there are very few options, they're pretty bad in the snow, they're not great offroad, airing up dually tires will make you want to kill whoever invented the dual headed chuck, balancing the rear tires is difficult, they cost more up front and they cost more to run.
There are a lot of things that duallies aren't that good at and where I'd much prefer to have a SRW truck. But when you hook up a big trailer, all those problems are quickly forgotten because of the towing experience, which, as I detailed in an earlier post, is immediately evident as "better" to "much better" (depending on how much weight/size of the trailer). I'm confident, in a "blind test" (no rear view mirrors?!), if you took my little 7K trailer and hooked it up to a F250 and F450 back to back and let me drive 2-3 miles with both of them, 100% of the time, I could tell you which is the dually. Shoot, my wife even noticed it when we traded the 250 in and took the 450 and one of our small trailers to pickup a load of lumber, within 30 mins on the highway, she said some version of "Wow, you really could forget the trailer is back there with this truck". That sentiment has always rubbed me the wrong way, I know the trailer is back there! But what she was feeling is the increase capacity and stability of the dually, even with a "tiny" (by RV standards) trailer back there. Once we put the 351M on it, her comment turned into some version of "Wow, that's different".
It's hard to argue "safe" and "not safe" because there's no universal consensus on what those terms mean. If there are 10 accidents a year with a trailer and a dually would prevent 1 of them, that's a 10% improvement. But, if there are only 10 accidents a year, sure, 10% is good, but you've optimized an EXTREMELY unlikely thing to happen. If, instead, there are 100,000 accidents a year, and a dually would prevent 10,000 of them, well, that's a different story. It also depends on how you use your RV and truck, if you tow 1X a year 60 miles to get your RV somewhere for the summer, leave it there, and pull it home in the fall, does it really make sense to try to optimize those 120 miles? What if you live in a place that has a ton of snow and ice, where duallies are clearly NOT better? In that situation, I suspect a SRW might be overall safer, yes, the towing is better, but you're doing so little of it, the chances of something happening is very very low.
If, however, you're driving many of your miles in a truck with the RV/big tailer behind you, the equation changes. Now, IMHO, you'd be making the wrong choice not getting a dually, even if your RV doesn't "need it" for weight, you'll be much happier with a dually because it's a better towing platform and that's what you're going to be using your truck for most of the time.
My truck has a trailer on it for around 50-60% of it's miles. We tow 1-2X a year, around 3000 miles (round trip). And a lot of trips in the 200-300 mile range. We also happen to live in a place where a dually isn't that big a deal to drive around town; it's a farming community, so there are plenty of them. That changes the personal calculus on DRW vs SRW.
With a 5th Wheel Camping trailer, in almost 100% of the time, payload capacity will become the most important capacity rating out of all the truck's ratings.
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05-16-2022, 06:08 AM #24
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Great points based off facts, not opinions. I will add to say this excerpt above, these are ratings to tow legally, but not necessarily safely. Just because your numbers say your 3500 lb crossover can tow that 28' bumper pull legally, doesn't necessarily mean it can do it safely. I'm not saying it won't be, but.... Same thing with the other end where DRW doesn't automatically make it safe if you are within specs of the truck. These specs are designed to help increase safety, but there are many variables that affect safety.
To opine that a DRW vehicle in a tow/haul situation is not going to be better, IF NOT necessary, nearly every time vs a SRW is misleading and even potentially dangerous. Does DRW make it so you can tow anything and able to do it without having to think about it, heck no. I've seen quite a few class 3 DRWs towing outside safe (and legal) limits (here's looking at you DRV and LUXE).
Yes, SRW have come a long way, but DRW have progressed even further, I would say. The tow capacity of the new generation of DRWs from the big 3 is insane and pushing far into the higher class trucks. A Class 3 truck that is rated to pull a 40,000 lbs trailer is bonkers. That is actually a higher spec trailer rating than a LOT of class 4 and 5 MDT can pull. 10 years ago you'd be laughed at.
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05-16-2022, 06:22 AM #25
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To opine that a DRW vehicle in a tow/haul situation is not going to be better, IF NOT necessary, nearly every time vs a SRW is misleading and even potentially dangerous.
I'd never argue that a DRW is better in a drive thru. Or better in the snow. Or better off-road. And I'd hold it's about as sensible to claim that a SRW is as good as a DRW towing. It's what they are built for, they basically have 2 reasons to exist, towing and upfitting. With a ton of downsides, it should be obvious that for them to exist at all, a DRW has to be a lot better at both of those corner cases to have companies continue to build them at all. I'm sure Ford would love to collapse their line down and build a SRW truck that can tow just as well as a DRW. It would be a huge seller, as I said above, duallies have downsides, a lot of them are "no go" for people. If they could build a truck that was as good/as capable without the fender flares and extra set of tires, they would. And I'd buy one, as would many others. Dually capacity and control without the downsides? Sign me up!
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05-16-2022, 08:17 AM #26
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Dangerous? Misleading? I guess all those facts and specs don't matter in the face of opinion.
I point back to the question from the OP. He asked a simple question and received a lot of opinions. Each of you are welcome to your opinion. For me, I keep those separate from the facts.Last edited by BobKilmer; 05-16-2022 at 08:24 AM.
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05-16-2022, 09:13 AM #27
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To opine that a DRW vehicle in a tow/haul situation is not going to be better, IF NOT necessary, nearly every time vs a SRW is misleading and even potentially dangerous.Dangerous? Misleading? I guess all those facts and specs don't matter in the face of opinion.
What is open for debate is "safer". That term has no definition, safer than what and in what situation? On average, I'd bet a lot of money, yes, a DRW is safer, always, when towing anything simply by virtue of redundancy on the rear tires; wider stance, and, in some DRW models, bigger brakes. In a specific situation though, it might not be; if I was towing (lord I hope this is never the case) through a fresh 6" snowfall, I might stop and take my outside tires off, more contact patch, while better in nearly all situations, is not helpful in snow.
But on average, I think it's relatively inarguable that DRW trucks tow better than SRW. And as your trailer gets bigger and heavier, the difference becomes more pronounced.
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05-16-2022, 12:37 PM #28
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Everything there in an opinion. Saying it is inarguable or not debatable doesn't make any of it a fact.
The facts are that there are towing specs that define what is safe. If in your opinion you feel it is safer to go beyond those towing specs then you are welcome to your opinion as is everyone else.
Having that opinion doesn't justify calling people who tow within the legal limits dangerous or claim they are spreading misinformation. Nor does it justify stating those opinions as facts.
I will repeat what I wrote above. The requirement is to be safe, not "safer." That logic drives to the conclusion you need a Freightliner. If you have any facts that support that the SRW design is not safe when used within the design limits I would like to see them. Something that says all those tests, specs, and designs are wrong and there really is an issue with towing within the specs.
As an aside, I drove from Gatlinburg TN to Bryson City NC today. Seven degree grades on the highway coming into Bryson City and ten degrees coming into the city. No issues all the way through there.
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05-16-2022, 12:55 PM #29
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If you have any facts that support that the SRW design is not safe when used within the design limits I would like to see them. Something that says all those tests, specs, and designs are wrong and there really is an issue with towing within the specs.
The problem is, there's no definition of "safe". And no, sadly the "towing specs" don't delineate safe vs not safe. They SHOULD, but they don't. As an example, if I get a F250 with a de-rate to 9,900 (as almost all had in my area because of taxation), and tow "over" that limit, am I unsafe? When it's exactly the same truck with a different sticker on it? Is the sticker magical?
Having that opinion doesn't justify calling people who tow within the legal limits dangerous or claim they are spreading misinformation. Nor does it justify stating those opinions as facts.
To opine that a DRW vehicle in a tow/haul situation is not going to be better, IF NOT necessary, nearly every time vs a SRW is misleading and even potentially dangerous.
If you read my post history, I was in this exact situation. I had a F250 that was derated. My particular F250 was identical to an F350 in every way that mattered for towing, same tires, rims, axle. I had bags on mine, which would further improve it to beyond what a 350 is from the factory. Was the 250 safe towing my 351M? Yes, it was, I never had anything happen. 100% of the time, it worked fine for me. Was it "legal"? No, it was not, I was over on GVWR (but under on axles and tires). Would it have been "safer" if I traded it for a F350 SRW? Only if the sticker is a structural component or my idea of "safer" is to avoid the outside case of getting an overweight ticket. Would that sticker have made me "safe" and I was "unsafe" in my 250? That makes no logical or mechanical sense, so I'm going to say "no".
Maybe it would be less incendiary if instead of "safe" we used the term "better"? Will a DRW tow better than a SRW? Yes, it will, in nearly every situation. That doesn't mean a SRW is bad though. Just like "less safe" doesn't mean that you're playing with a hand grenade with the pin already removed.
If you can agree with that, I'd sum this up as "The more margin you have between your trucks rating and the weight of the trailer, the better the towing experience will be". And my personal experience, from the 3 trucks I've owned in the past few years, certainly bears that out.
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05-16-2022, 01:23 PM #30
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Safe or better really doesn't matter to me.
If I increased the size of all the headers in my house it would be "safer." And if I doubled up the floor joists it would be "better." I could measure the improvement in design margin for each change and claim overall the house was improved by the changes. But in the end it was fine when it met the original requirements, which were set by the building code.
I am glad your experience is that more margin gives a better towing experience. My SRW truck tows great with the margin it has. My experience is that after 20,000 towing miles I have no regrets or concerns towing with this configuration.
I recommend we agree to disagree on this. Peace.
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