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  1. #31
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    I recommend we agree to disagree on this. Peace.
    Sure, but I can't leave it on this analogy because it's missing an important point.

    If I increased the size of all the headers in my house it would be "safer." And if I doubled up the floor joists it would be "better." I could measure the improvement in design margin for each change and claim overall the house was improved by the changes. But in the end it was fine when it met the original requirements, which were set by the building code.
    This analogy doesn't hold because no normal person, without tearing the house apart, would be able to tell the difference between a double and single joist setup. A more reasonable analogy would be floor joists that were rated to hold the floor, but you could feel the floor flex under you. Unlikely to break, but any normal person would be able to feel the difference between a single and doubled up joist.

    That's more akin to the difference between a SRW and DRW. Anyone who's towed anything of size would, within a few miles, know if they are using a SRW or DRW. It's a very significant difference in the "butt in seat" feel. A more apt comparison would be the difference between towing with a gas vs diesel. Will the gas engine tow it? Sure it will. Will the diesel tow it better? Your darn right it will, and any normal person would recognize the difference. There are a lot of good reasons not to buy a diesel (COST!!), but nobody would mistake a diesel for a gas engine when towing; it's a much better engine for towing heavy, has an exhaust brake, doesn't rev to the moon. More comfortable, more power and, when the conditions get nasty; big uphills/downhills, you'll notice it even more.

    You may not want to respond, and I understand and respect that, but, just curious, have you ever towed something big with a dually? This may be one of those discussions where we're talking past one another because we don't have the shared experience of seeing the difference?

  2. #32
    Seasoned Camper
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overtaxed View Post
    Sure, but I can't leave it on this analogy because it's missing an important point.



    This analogy doesn't hold because no normal person, without tearing the house apart, would be able to tell the difference between a double and single joist setup. A more reasonable analogy would be floor joists that were rated to hold the floor, but you could feel the floor flex under you. Unlikely to break, but any normal person would be able to feel the difference between a single and doubled up joist.

    That's more akin to the difference between a SRW and DRW. Anyone who's towed anything of size would, within a few miles, know if they are using a SRW or DRW. It's a very significant difference in the "butt in seat" feel. A more apt comparison would be the difference between towing with a gas vs diesel. Will the gas engine tow it? Sure it will. Will the diesel tow it better? Your darn right it will, and any normal person would recognize the difference. There are a lot of good reasons not to buy a diesel (COST!!), but nobody would mistake a diesel for a gas engine when towing; it's a much better engine for towing heavy, has an exhaust brake, doesn't rev to the moon. More comfortable, more power and, when the conditions get nasty; big uphills/downhills, you'll notice it even more.

    You may not want to respond, and I understand and respect that, but, just curious, have you ever towed something big with a dually? This may be one of those discussions where we're talking past one another because we don't have the shared experience of seeing the difference?
    I tried my best to end this but you won't let it go!

    I think the analogies I gave for the floor and header are perfectly applicable. The typical floor spec is L/360, which means that the deflection in the floor under the design load is equal to the floor span divided by 360. A floor built to that spec feels fine to walk on. One could argue for L/480, or L/720, to have less flex, but the flex at L/360 is below what people sense as they walk on it. Insisting on margin beyond the spec means that even though the flex as specified is not noticeable, you want a stiffer floor because more margin is always better. The same is true for the headers. They are designed to hold a specific dead weight and live weight. But why just go with the 40 PSF live weight, why not go for 80 PSF? Or 120 PSF? After all, more margin is better. Neither will really matter to the user of the house. The floor feels fine and the headers are safe as designed since they meet the design requirement.

    The SAE design spec for towing is there for exactly the same reason as the spec for the house. Make it safe, make it so the accelerations felt in the truck are below acceptable limits,...all designed to set standards for towing.

    I have driven a dually, towed with a dually, and been a passenger in a dually while towing. It didn't feel any better than my SRW truck. If anything, it didn't ride as well, especially when empty, due to the higher unsprung weight and stiffer springs. For there to be a difference in performance would require that my SRW configuration have some noticeable deficiencies in performance.

    As I said today, 7 degree to 10 degree roads on the way to my current campsite, driving the speed limit, and no issues. 20,000 miles and happy with the performance. No issues with winds or passing trucks. All while at an RV weight of between 18,000 - 18,900 pounds. Everything I would expect from staying within my towing spec limits.

  3. #33
    Site Team xrated's Avatar
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    Trying to read this whole thread gives me a headache, so one more attempt to clarify it and I'm done....


    The 395MS needs a DUALLY!
    2016 F350 CrewCab Dually
    2018 Momentum 394M...Heavily Modded!
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    Excessive Payload is a Wonderful Thing

    "If it ain't fast....It ain't Fun"

  4. #34
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    I have driven a dually, towed with a dually, and been a passenger in a dually while towing. It didn't feel any better than my SRW truck. If anything, it didn't ride as well, especially when empty, due to the higher unsprung weight and stiffer springs. For there to be a difference in performance would require that my SRW configuration have some noticeable deficiencies in performance.
    This is our fundamental disagreement, and neither can "prove" the other wrong, so, I'll give my viewpoint and leave it there.

    First, our area of agreement, I didn't think the F450 rode as well as my F250 unloaded. It was close, but I would agree, unloaded, it was/is a bit less comfortable. I put on Sulastic shackles, new shocks, let some air out of the tires, and then things settled down. Now I'd say it's pretty comfortable, but I wouldn't bet money that a 250 isn't more comfortable unloaded. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'd be wrong if I was betting on the 450 being better unloaded than a 250, it's not what the truck is built to excel at.

    What I found, comparing trucks back to back (my 2019 F250 to my 2019 F450) was not at all the same as you experienced when towing. For me, the difference was immediately noticeable. So much so, within 10 miles of driving with a trailer attached, I knew "it's all over but the crying". Thankfully, I found a dealer who had a used truck that would let me do a "test tow", most people won't be that lucky. I actually didn't wind up buying that truck, but after the back to back comparison, I knew the time with the 250 was limited. Which was too bad because, for any use except towing, it was a better truck in, well, basically every other way.

    Also, I did have a noticeable deficiency in performance, coming downhill with the 250 hard on the exhaust brake was not comfortable. I could feel the rear end of the truck getting "light" and trying to come around. Nothing ever happened, and, most likely, nothing ever would have happened. But the 450 doesn't feel that way at all, it's much more confidence inspiring when I hit sections of road like that.

    There are a few things I hate about the 450. Top of the list is that, because of the hard sidewall 19.5" tires, it tramlines on certain types of roads. Unfortunately, one of those roads happens to be right in front of my house (highway under construction with some of it paved, some still grooved). It's a handful. The 250 was better. Tractor trailers really struggle in that section, again, because of the tire stiffness. Not a fan, not at all.

    The typical floor spec is L/360, which means that the deflection in the floor under the design load is equal to the floor span divided by 360. A floor built to that spec feels fine to walk on. One could argue for L/480, or L/720
    Floors are probably not the best example because, as long as they don't bow or collapse, most people are going to deem them acceptable. The better example that I thought of later is a gas vs diesel for towing. Both can do it, one does it better, even if you stay within spec of both vehicles. One engine is more capable, and has a better HP/torque curve for towing. I'd argue the same is true for a dually vs SRW when towing anything. Which is why I gave the example of towing trailers well below spec across multiple trucks, a 150, 250 and 450. Each step up, the experience of towing my 7K trailer improved. I'd agree, the bigger step was between 150 and 250, but there was further improvement going to a 450. But I was within spec for the trailer with all 3 trucks, all were legal. But there's absolutely no question in my mind which tows that trailer the best. Nor should there be, if the 450 didn't tow better than a 250 or 150, it would be about the most useless pickup truck that ever existed!

    The 395MS needs a DUALLY!
    I wouldn't tow one without a dually. But, this is where things get silly, you can configure a F350 SRW to get >4,500 lbs of payload in some configurations. That would be a gas truck (so no exhaust brake) and stripped down, but you could get within spec on a SRW. I wouldn't do it, but if you're going by "what's legal" it is possible. If you're going by "what's a good idea", I'd stop right after the "DUALLY!" and call it a day.
    Last edited by Overtaxed; 05-16-2022 at 05:46 PM.

  5. #35
    Site Team xrated's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overtaxed View Post



    I wouldn't tow one without a dually. But, this is where things get silly, you can configure a F350 SRW to get >4,500 lbs of payload in some configurations. That would be a gas truck (so no exhaust brake) and stripped down, but you could get within spec on a SRW. I wouldn't do it, but if you're going by "what's legal" it is possible. If you're going by "what's a good idea", I'd stop right after the "DUALLY!" and call it a day.
    I agree on being able to configure a SRW truck to get the payload needed....if it is configured correctly. And therein lies the problem. I'll venture a WAG here and say the probably 95% of the trucks that people buy for towing/personal use are NOT those kind of trucks. Businesses and companies buy the stripped down trucks for sure, but most people want as many of the creature comforts and amenities as they can afford (and sometimes NOT afford), which mean. Lariat, King Ranch, Platinum versions.....NOT XL work trucks. So when they are loaded up with all the stuff and the trim level is in the upper range, the payload goes down dramatically. So yes, they can be configured correctly....but....no one wants them built like that because they want all the stuff and the high trim packages.
    2016 F350 CrewCab Dually
    2018 Momentum 394M...Heavily Modded!
    2023 Suzuki GSX-S1000 GT+
    Excessive Payload is a Wonderful Thing

    "If it ain't fast....It ain't Fun"

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by xrated View Post
    I agree on being able to configure a SRW truck to get the payload needed....if it is configured correctly. And therein lies the problem. I'll venture a WAG here and say the probably 95% of the trucks that people buy for towing/personal use are NOT those kind of trucks. Businesses and companies buy the stripped down trucks for sure, but most people want as many of the creature comforts and amenities as they can afford (and sometimes NOT afford), which mean. Lariat, King Ranch, Platinum versions.....NOT XL work trucks. So when they are loaded up with all the stuff and the trim level is in the upper range, the payload goes down dramatically. So yes, they can be configured correctly....but....no one wants them built like that because they want all the stuff and the high trim packages.
    I'm sure you're right, most, probably almost all, aren't configured to get to those levels of payload. But, this is where "unreality" starts to rear it's head in these discussions. What option typically has the biggest impact on payload? In most cases (maybe all), it's engine selection. In post after post about towing heavy, RV's, trailers, whatever, the suggestion is almost always made "Get a gasser, you'll have more payload". And that suggestion is, of course, correct. But, think it through for a minute; the diesel engine is over the front axles, the RV is over the rear axles. How does adding weight to the front impact how much the back can carry? Oh, I've got it, must be the brakes that are the limiting factor! Except that diesel engines have exhaust brakes that are far more effective for many towing situations. Is a gasser with 500lbs of payload left vs a diesel that's 500 over payload (with all of that 1000 lbs difference on the front axle, both front and rears under tire capacity) really "safer"? It's hard for me to believe that.

  7. #37
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    Just buy a Volvo
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazybanshee View Post
    Just buy a Volvo
    That's an awesome rig! I wish we could make that work for us; sadly, we do a lot of hiking with often involves 4X4 and tiny dirt roads up the sides of mountains. The 450 is bad enough, forget about it in a semi!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overtaxed View Post
    That's an awesome rig! I wish we could make that work for us; sadly, we do a lot of hiking with often involves 4X4 and tiny dirt roads up the sides of mountains. The 450 is bad enough, forget about it in a semi!
    The Freightliner Business Class M2 (AKA Sport Chassis) is smaller than the Volvo 6xx and 7xx series - the footprint is about the same as a LB CC DRW class 3 truck:

    https://www.truckpaper.com/listings/...r/freightliner

    My wife gets worried every time I look at them - but we don't have enough trailer to justify anything bigger than our F350.

    Rob
    U.S. Army Retired
    2012 F350 DRW CC LB Lariat PS 6.7
    2020 Solitude 310GK-R, MORryde IS, disc brakes,
    Sailun LRG tires, solar, DP windows, W/D
    (Previously in a Reflection 337RLS)
    Full time since 08/2015

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Second Chance View Post
    The Freightliner Business Class M2 (AKA Sport Chassis) is smaller than the Volvo 6xx and 7xx series - the footprint is about the same as a LB CC DRW class 3 truck:

    https://www.truckpaper.com/listings/...r/freightliner

    My wife gets worried every time I look at them - but we don't have enough trailer to justify anything bigger than our F350.

    Rob
    I know some of it is optical illusion. They just look huge, but I have no doubt you're right, they're not really that much bigger than a CC pickup with an 8' bed. The thing that I worry about the most is height, they appear to be near as tall as the RV when I see them hooked, and that would be a big problem for some of our uses. We do a lot of dirt road driving to trailheads and I sometimes carry a saw on the back to deal with the low trees for the 450. With another 2-3' on that truck? To get to some trails might involved a small logging operation to open the road up enough.

    I'd have one if we didn't do so much backwoods driving, no question about it. I'm sure the towing experience would be very noticeably better than the 450, but it just wouldn't work for our uses once we get there. I'd need the setup where you have a semi with a ramp on it for a Smartcar.

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