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  1. #1
    Seasoned Camper
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    Underbelly Inspection... What I found is Frightening

    The first time (2+ years ago) I used my supposedly 4 season trailer in temps below 20 degrees the tanks froze, even with the propane furnace running. I opened up the furnace area to find that the duct to the underside was never inserted into the floor. Easy fix but a sign of more poor workmanship problems to come (that I discussed elsewhere). Anyway, it took a day with the heat set on 80 to defrost. So I had an RV dealer install 12 volt tank heaters and camped the rest of the winter. But this year the water lines froze. So much of the rest of the 2 month trip I ran the hot water every night to keep it from freezing. But this didn't always work.... So I decided to open up the belly to install heating for the pipes and insulate. I found that the corroplast was waterlogged where it sagged in the middle of the trailer and there were large gaps between the coroplast and frame, and gaps where things went thru the corroplast. These were factory caused issues, but not really that big a deal.

    What else did I find?

    Dangerous, perhaps criminally bad workmanship. Most concerning was wiring damaged because of an obvious factory installation error: 12 and 120 volt wires were pinched between the frame and tanks and no grommets or cushioning were used to protect the overly tightly strained wires that run thru sharp edged frame passage holes. Some of the outside insulation on this wiring had worn thru. PEX pipes were resting on sharp frame edges showing wear and were pinched (crushed) because of the way they were installed in these same frame holes.

    I believe Every Grand Design owner needs to do an underbelly inspection. In fact I now believe such an inspection should be part of the initial purchase inspection. None of the wiring placement would meet current standards for the marine or automotive industry, where vehicles have to deal with vehicle movement. I doubt these would pass a building inspection. The biggest sin is running wiring without protection from sharp edged metal holes in the frame. This appears to be intentional.

    Maybe every RV should be so inspected. If you don't know what to look for, ask me. Get a strong flashlight, a drill, powerful electric screwdriver, wire ties, electrical tape, plastic and/or foam cushioning, lots of brackets. You need to closely inspect the wiring and pipes for wear, install brackets to properly provide strain relief, look for where the wiring comes in contact with anything, especially sharp edges. Or hire someone who's got home or automotive industry experience. Don't have an RV dealer do it because they don't expect better workmanship, and they don't have the time.

    JUST DO IT!
    Doug, Patti and our puppy Leo are from upstate NY.
    Imagine 2019 XLS 18RBE
    2021 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel

  2. #2
    Seasoned Camper
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    I do not know about others, that is what I would expect to find in an RV. Although you would think it would be easy to have building practices that revolve around common sense, common sense is not common.

    To build an RV properly would cause most builders to go out to business.

    I would agree, if you are handy, go through everything. You should not have to, but then again, the builder is not, so who will?

  3. #3
    Seasoned Camper
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butcher View Post
    I do not know about others, that is what I would expect to find in an RV. Although you would think it would be easy to have building practices that revolve around common sense, common sense is not common.

    To build an RV properly would cause most builders to go out to business.

    I would agree, if you are handy, go through everything. You should not have to, but then again, the builder is not, so who will?
    Agreed. But I don't know how or why one of these manufacturers hasn't been sued into bankruptcy. I expect that they are getting away with this quality because fuses are blowing, savings people's lives. Or because too many RV owners just expect this level of no quality junk.

    I refuse to accept this kind of workmanship again. I am modifying mine to make sure it's really safe and fully functional, as it is obvious that the manufacturer did not. To be sure this one will be the last RV I buy from an Elkhart area builder. If I ever decide to buy one again. I hope that I can say that mine, after 3 years of modifications, is both safe and truly a 4 season trailer.

    Personally I find this all to be a gross violation of trust. Grand Design, and perhaps the whole RV industry, is lying about what they make. Mine wasn't really built for 4 season use. It certainly isn't of high quality. When it came off the line it was a defect ridden piece of junk. But now that it's been back to the dealer half a dozen times for warranty repairs and after I spent another $2,500 for real tires and safety modifications, I am going to keep it a while. Mainly because I don't want to start over buying and modifying another one.
    Doug, Patti and our puppy Leo are from upstate NY.
    Imagine 2019 XLS 18RBE
    2021 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel

  4. #4
    Seasoned Camper
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    I'm at the age where I can spend the time to do it my way and be done with it. I do complain more than most, but that just wastes time. One thing for certain, if there was a real issue [trailers burning down, people being injured] it would have been recalled or fixed during the build process. Good luck finding a lawyer that will take on that issue.

    It's good that you mentioned what you found because it is sound advice for everyone. As far as I'm concerned, even with my lack of experience, I feel I'm more qualified to meet my expectations than someone at the dealer or factory.

    Just count your blessings that you have the ability to resolve the issue. Sure, there are other things in life, but there are so many people that just do not have the skill set to take this on.

    One last thing, when you do resolve thing like this, it is a good feeling knowing it is done right. There is no doubt about it, you care more about your stuff than anyone else in the world.

  5. #5
    Site Sponsor
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    I think of the RV manufacturers as the car manufacturers of the 70's, until Toyota, Honda, Subaru, and Kia or any of the other companies that gave them a run for their money start building RV's they know they are safe. They have convinced 85% of us that it is cool to fix our own rigs and are even willing to send us the parts for free to make the repairs if it means we will stop bothering the dealers. I know there is a sticker on the side of my rig that says it is built in accordance to the Oregon Statutes and Administrative Rules of the Building Codes Division. There also is a sticker on mine from The State Of Washington Department Of Labor And Industries that claims it was inspected and approved to be built to Washingtons compliance. I have a hard time believing anyone from either of those two agencies have ever inspected these rigs. If they did they would fail miserably, I know, I have been in the building trades for 47 years. I have built residential and commercial in Washington all those years and know how hard it is to get inspections passed by the Washington Department of Labor and Industries. They do all of our electrical inspections and I know for a fact they wouldn't pass 80% of the wiring in these trailers. Granted most of the wiring is low voltage and will probably not hurt anyone but none the less it isn't wired very professionally. I have owed several RV's over the last 40 plus years and agree that some of the older ones were built a bit better and with a bit more care, and service was a bit better back then too. I could always get my rigs in on relatively short notice and they would have them back to me within a few days. But now with so many bad manufactures and dealers carrying so many brands it is nearly impossible to get anything repaired, so that is why most of us do it our selves. Also Butcher is right, most of us are more qualified to do the repairs and maintenance. It is too bad that the industry has gotten to this point because the prices they charge for these rigs is crazy. We pay as much for a trailer as we do for a truck, but the service, quality, and complexity of the truck is 10 times that of the trailer. I was told by an independent repair shop that it costs about 30 to 35% of the MSRP price to build these rigs, and that makes sense when you look at the construction. They are a high markup item, just look how much they are willing to discount them at the end of a year or season.
    2020 303RLS
    2018 Dodge 2500 Cummins
    BW Companion
    Retired and loving it.

  6. #6
    Seasoned Camper
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    I agree with SSROSS, except I compare the RVs industry more to the small cruising boat industry than auto and trucks. Both RVs and cruisers contain a mix of appliances, are recreational products, are domestically manufactured of parts supplied by many of the same companies, and there is little foreign competition in their assembly. Yet the quality of what the domestic boat builders do is far better. Why? For one, boat building is not concentrated in Elkhart. There is a culture of taking quality and safety much more seriously and that comes from a long history of dealing with a harsher marine environment and regulations put in place to minimize loss of life in that environment. For example the marine industry has detailed standards and practices that address how to provide proper wiring support and strain relief that is obviously not part of anything Grand Design makes. Does ANYone make an RV built as well as the least expensive cruiser? Anyone? Hello?
    Last edited by Dadeo6472; 05-16-2022 at 08:01 AM.
    Doug, Patti and our puppy Leo are from upstate NY.
    Imagine 2019 XLS 18RBE
    2021 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel

  7. #7
    Seasoned Camper
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    If it was built 'right' there is not a truck that can pull it. Short of a semi.

    I would rather see an effort made to have a special drivers license to tow these monsters on the road. Just because you have a pulse and a regular drivers license does not make you qualified to handle this load. Motorcycles have a license and they are just flies in a windshield when it comes to getting in an accident.

  8. #8
    Long Hauler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butcher View Post
    If it was built 'right' there is not a truck that can pull it. Short of a semi. ...
    And you'd have to take out a second mortgage to afford it.
    Howard and Peggy
    2019 Momentum 351M, and 2018 RAM Cummins dually 6-speed.
    His: 1999 Honda Interceptor
    Hers: 2013 Spyder ST-S

  9. #9
    Seasoned Camper
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    Butcher and Happy....
    I have to disagree with both of these comments. There are plenty of under 30 foot cruisers that can be easily towed with a half ton, and under 25 feet can be easily towed with an SUV or quarter ton truck. Why can't RVs? And there are plenty of new and used affordable cruisers at prices only 1/3 more than trailers... They are more expensive, but not that much more expensive.

    One of the reasons RVs can't be towed as easily as a solid boat is because they are so poorly designed.

    The reality is this: compared to almost any other recreational product, RVs are poorly designed, poorly regulated, and poorly made. Yes they are cheap, but also disposable, as reflected in their fast depreciation. I bought my 20 foot 2009 Sea Hunt boat for about $22k in 2009. Sea Hunt makes average quality and price boats but it's still worth $15,000 to $20,000. Can the same % depreciation be said to apply to any travel trailer other than Airstream? Anyone???
    Last edited by Dadeo6472; 05-16-2022 at 09:17 AM.
    Doug, Patti and our puppy Leo are from upstate NY.
    Imagine 2019 XLS 18RBE
    2021 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel

  10. #10
    Long Hauler
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    Boats:RV's as Apples:Oranges.
    Howard and Peggy
    2019 Momentum 351M, and 2018 RAM Cummins dually 6-speed.
    His: 1999 Honda Interceptor
    Hers: 2013 Spyder ST-S

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