Our Imagine 2670MK Story

[CamperDiver]

Hello All,

Thought I'd share tales of the initial purchase and subsequent adventures my wife and I have had - discovering issues and getting them sorted out for our 2022 Imagine 2670MK. I hope the information is both entertaining and educational for those considering purchase of this model.

The story begins several years ago when we began thinking to upgrade our much-beloved 1999 Starcraft Starmaster pop-up trailer. Full-timing had always been on our bucket list and retirement was on the horizon. On a whim we visited a dealer to look at some modest trailers and as the salesperson prepped info and keys, we wandered into a unit they’d just received - it happened to be an Imagine 2670MK. We remember thinking “wow – what a beautiful trailer, but way too big for us!” Remember – we were coming from a pop-up camper...

Fast forward to September 2021 where we were ready to buy, but no final decision on specific brand/model. To help (or perhaps hinder) – we attended the “World’s Largest RV Show” in Hershey PA. After 3 blurry days in and out of hundreds of RVs, guess which one we decided to get? Yes – the very same model we thought was way too big back when all this started, must have been fate. Bottom line is that we loved (and still do) the interior floor plan, the main living area space provided by the opposing slide-outs, the amount of counter space, cupboards, and storage space, the above average quality of interior, its general fit & finish, and all the other details that make Grand Design a good brand. We felt this trailer was enough to support an initial stab at full-timing yet still very towable with its GVWR of 8495 lbs.

There was lots of dealing going on at the show with great pricing despite the Grand Design MSGR increases during that year. We received a very good show price offer but then called a dealer closer to home who was willing to match it for a new 2022 unit in inventory on their lot. We agreed to the purchase over the phone along with a number of dealer-installed add-ons:

• 2nd AC in bedroom
• GoPower Solar Elite charging system (2 panels) + charge controller + inverter
• Slide-out awning for left-side slide out

While all these things are great to have – collectively (except for the hitch) they represent our first newbie mistake, let me explain...

One thing we failed to research or consider properly was the cargo carrying capacity of the trailer. We bought our tow vehicle after purchasing the trailer and would only become sensitized to things like payload capacity at that later time.. All we knew was the 2670MK GVWR minus UVW weight listed on Grand Design website was 1650 lbs, which seemed good enough amidst our excitement deciding on and purchasing this model.

Fast forward again to our maiden voyage – a 3 night camping trip to small RV park in the mountains (full hookups). By this time we had purchased the tow vehicle and were very sensitized to the importance of payload/cargo capacity. We wanted to get data on the actual weight with trailer lightly loaded with cargo (much less than we’d have for an extended trip) plus a full load of fresh water (gray & black tanks dry) as a baseline. The CAT scale result was 8540 lbs – slightly over GVWR! Yes – we know it is rare to travel with a full water tank, but we plan lots of boondocking and certainly will need to travel short distances with a full tank now and then.

Why so much weight? Several things:

• The 2670MK has poor cargo capacity relative to its size and storage space. Actual UVW (unloaded vehicle weight) of our trailer is 7114 lbs as shown on trailer sticker vs. UVW spec of 6845 lbs shown on GD website. This is a standard build trailer with only the “mandatory” options, so the almost 300 lbs heavier dry weight of the trailer (relative to what was advertised) was surprising to us. Not so surprising now – further research indicates that real trailers almost always weigh more than advertised specs. Bottom line, our trailer GVWR sticker says max cargo capacity of 1341 lbs. which is its GVWR of 8495 lbs minus 40 lbs of propane (2 x 20lb tanks filled), minus UVW.
• Our biggest newbie mistake was to go overboard adding 2nd AC, substantial solar system, inverter, and slide-out awning before researching/calculating how it would affect cargo capacity. We estimate about 270 lbs for all this stuff, bringing remaining cargo capacity down to about 1071 lbs.
• We installed two 80 Amp-Hour AGM batteries – reducing cargo capacity down aother 112 lbs to about 959 lbs.
• Fill the fresh water system (45 gal tank, 6 gal in hot water heater plus another gallon in the pipes) with a total of 52 gallons of water (432 lbs) leaving about 527 lbs remaining for personal cargo.

It didn’t seem like we had 550-ish lbs of cargo in the trailer for our short 3-day inaugural camping trip (food, beverages, kitchen gear, dishes & utensils, outdoor gear, electrical/H2O/dump accessories, clothes, bedding, mattress topper, toiletries, etc.) but we didn’t weigh the cargo so likely our perception was off. Bottom line – the CAT scale measurement says that we did have this much personal cargo.

At this point our big concern was not so much about rolling with a full tank of H2O, instead we worried about what would happen when we loaded up with personal cargo for an extended trip.

Fast forward again to just this past week – the start of our first extended trip which will be 3-4 months in a big clockwise loop starting in Colorado, then a bit of western Wyoming, Idaho, Oregon, Washington, up to Banff Canada for the fall colors, then back home. We’ve packed for comfort & fun in terms of gear, clothing, kitchen/dining, etc, but not overboard by any means – closets and drawers in bedroom are not jammed full, nor are other storage spaces. The initial load of food is more than the average we’ll reach after the first several weeks, but again not by a crazy amount. The kitchen cupboards and drawers are not jam-packed, there’s plenty of extra storage space. Heavier items like tool kits are in the truck... With the water heater and pipes full and maybe 5 gallons in the fresh H2O tank, the trailer’s weight is 8520 lbs (CAT scale), about 25 lbs over its GVWR. Emptying the fresh H20 tank brings it just under GVWR limit.

If we need to fill the fresh H2O tank prior to boondocking, we’ll be about 360 lbs over weight.

Bottom line – the trailer’s cargo carrying capacity is insufficient and I will call it anemic relative to all the great storage space it has. We’ve made it worse by adding the 2nd AC, slide-out awning, and substantial solar/inverter system, but even without all this stuff we’d still be overweight when fully loaded with water.

This cargo weight problem is by far the biggest issue for us, and honestly we don’t know what we’re going to do. We continue to love the trailer’s design and comfort – but we are avid boondockers and there are many places where it’s not possible to fill up the fresh H2O close to the boondocking location (ie: would require travel at highway speeds overweight). We’ve already looked at some other trailers with an eye toward better cargo carrying capacities. We think 1700 lbs (cargo capacity on the sticker) would be enough, 2000-ish comfortable, 2500-3000 would be great because of the extra safety margin.

We’re also planning to research suspension upgrades for our 2670MK by a shop that could add a revised/certified GVWR sticker to the trailer - We’ve read this may be possible but need to research how practical and whether there are other things such as the frame itself which might be limiting factors. If anybody knows a good shop that can do this kind of work with a re-certification of GVWR, please let us know!

A word to those considering purchase of this model – we recently checked the sticker on a newer 2670MK at our dealer and its sticker showed an even worse cargo carrying capacity, something between 1100-1200 lbs, possibly because GD has converted to all-electric refrigerators and added a solar panel to compensate. Bottom line: anyone considering purchase of a 2670MK should think long and hard about cargo carrying capacity vs. how they plan to use the trailer.

Next subject: hitch weight and weight distribution hitch. The 2670MK has a reputation of too little weight on the hitch leading to sway problems, however in our case it was completely opposite.

At the time of purchase we asked our dealer to install an appropriate weight distribution hitch – they selected a Husky Centerline 32218 suitable for hitch weight between 800-1200 lbs. Our first CAT scale measurement (modest cargo well distributed throughout the trailer & full H2O) measured 1360 lbs at the hitch, yikes! We called Husky and their support person was very concerned about the weight being so much over the rating of the hitch, mentioning things like “catastrophic failure”...

Our dealer had selected the hitch based on 844 lbs dry hitch weight reported on the vehicle weight sheet (for our trailer) from Grand Design. The equipment they added (2nd AC, solar, slide-out awning), mostly located toward the front of the trailer, had not been factored in - nor had, batteries and H20 (the fresh water tank is located very forward in this trailer). I later found out the dealer doesn’t even have a hitch scale to measure and confirm they are installing correctly rated hitches.

Even the second CAT measurement with the trailer loaded with cargo for 4 months and just 5 gallons in the fresh H2O tank was 1220 lbs at the hitch. Clearly our dealer had selected the wrong model hitch (weight rating too low).

Furthermore, our dealer totally botched the installation of the hitch. The details are worthy of an entirely separate story but for example the spring arm platforms that are supposed to be lined up vertically with where the spring arms attach to the main hitch piece (on truck), were 10” offset (vertically), etc. Forget about the hitch being under-rated for weight, even the correct model hitch would not have worked correctly if installed as the dealer did. After persuasion the dealer refunded the original hitch cost and installation labor, we then purchased the model rated for 1000-1400 lbs and installed it (correctly) ourselves.

There were a number of small warranty issues not worth describing, all taken care of by our dealer with the exception of one which turns out to be a design problem with the electrical system. The symptom is that the time on the clock-radio occasionally gets reset, we then have to remember how to re-program it or open up the manual (more often the case). Not a huge issue but turns out to be very annoying, especially as it is random and intermittent. I’m an EE and ended up taking measurements which show that when the TV extension motor is operated (TV is under the counter and gets extended up for use) and the motor reaches the end of its travel, the voltage on that circuit (which powers both the TV extension motor and the clock-radio) drops to about 8.8V while the motor is stalled before the user releases the switch – this is with fully charged batteries. With half-charged batteries the voltage will drop to about 8.2V. I verified the clock-radio powers itself off at 8.53V (ie: it’s clock gets reset). So whenever the TV extension motor is operated with partially discharged batteries there’s a good chance the clock will get reset.

The design problem is that the motor and clock-radio are on the same 12V circuit and the wire gauge from the fuse panel is too small, thus allowing too much voltage drop when the motor stalls at the end of its travel. I sent a detailed technical report to GD Customer Service – disappointingly they didn’t know what to do with the information and just told me to take it to my dealer for warranty service. Which I’d already done and the dealer had no idea how to proceed or what to fix. So this issue remains unresolved. I was really hoping that the report would be forwarded to a GD Electrical Engineer who could recommend the best way to fix the issue. I may take it back to the dealer to let them fight with GD, or may just learn to live with it. Once the warranty expires I might design and build a circuit to automatically cut power to the TV Extension Motor before the voltage can drop too low.

If anyone else with a 2670MK is having a mysterious clock-time getting reset problem, now you know why.

There are a few other fun/informational stories to relate...

Our second camping trip was over Thanksgiving to Capitol Reef National Park in southern Utah. Overnight temperatures were down to 19 degrees, daytime in the 50s. The trailer did just fine in terms of not freezing up – we kept the furnace on overnight and put insulating socks on the low-point water system drain pipes. There were two issues with the furnace however. One is that the Furion digital thermostat’s lowest temperature setting is 60 degrees. We would have much preferred to set it at something in the 50s, as the heater turned on very frequently overnight and the bedroom gets much warmer than the larger main area (ie: too warm for comfortable sleeping). We think the underbelly would stay warm enough with a lower thermostat setting (forward cargo compartment remained in the upper 50s overnight). Research indicates almost all modern/digital RV thermostats have minimum setting of 60 degrees, which is just a silly decision made by the design engineers. I’m thinking to add a simple analog thermostat in series which can be set to a lower temperature.

The other issue with the furnace was electrical power consumption. Prior to the trip I thought about how much propane might be used to keep the trailer warm - worried we might go through both of the small 20lb tanks on this trailer, so I packed an extra 20lb tank in the truck. Turns out we used less than one propane tank for the 6 night trip, but the real surprise was the furnace fan consuming lots of power from the batteries. We were camped without hookups for 3 of the nights and the solar system provided little charging due to the short days, angle of the sun, and campground being partially shaded from all the trees (without leaves but still enough branches to create lots of shadow). The batteries were drained to 60% after just two nights – and knowing that AGM batteries shouldn’t be discharged below 50% we ran the truck to charge them up a bit before the 3rd night (we don’t have a generator yet). So for those considering cold-weather boondocking, the trailer works fine in these conditions (50s in daytime, down to 19 at night) but expect the furnace to consume a lot of power from the batteries.

Couple of other things good for folks to know:

There is a small shelf that looks like it should be a step-up to assist in accessing the overhead cupboards, on the floor of the left side of the bed (as viewed from the foot of the bed). It is not a step!!! ... which my wife discovered as it collapsed and she fell to the floor. Luckily no serious injury, but in it's broken-apart state it became clear that it is a purely ornamental covering for the fresh water fill hose coming in from the outer wall. Do not step on it! Since I had to re-build it anyway, I reinforced it with 3/4" plywood, lots of screws, and now it is a proper weight-bearing step.

On the departure day for our first big trip, after everything fixed, packed, checked, and double-checked, we are finally ready to close the trailer and hitch it up. The big street-side slide (Slide 2) goes in just fine, but Slide 1 (kitchen & TV) only moves a couple inches before the front side stops and the other side keeps going - skewing the slide and binding it up. We move it all the way out (works fine), try it again and then several more times with same result. At this point we're convinced it's a major mechanical failure and our trip is doomed (service appointments at our dealer and all others in our area are months out). I can't legally describe what I said at the time... But then some quick googling turns up information about Schwintek slide (Slide 1 is a Schwintek) motors/controller becoming un-synchronized and causing this very problem, quite frequently. One can find online instructions and even YouTube videos showing how to re-synchronize, and indeed later I found the same instructions on the lower corner of page 130 of the Grand Design manual, which I had surely read when we first took delivery of the trailer but since forgot. We stepped through the re-sync procedure about 10 times before the slide started working correctly, but it was fixed and our trip was back on again!

Another story is about our tow vehicle purchase. Just after agreeing to purchase the trailer we were eyeing the F-150 hybrid due to the “available” towing capacity of 12,700 lbs and “available” payload of 2120 lbs advertised in the official Ford Towing Guide, plus its built-in generator. Big reality check to see actual payload capacities on door stickers in the 1200-1400 lbs range (well-equipped super cab models) – clearly not enough for the 2670MK plus a couple of humans in the truck... We asked dealers about ordering one of these with heavy duty payload package but were told it is not available on hybrid super cab models. Shifting gears to look at ¾ ton trucks we quickly realized (Sep 2021) there were very few on the market – either new or used. Then early one Saturday morning I saw two F-250s pop up on a nearby dealer’s website. We immediately drove to the dealer where one had already sold – we purchased the other on the spot. We like its quiet ride even though handling not as good as others, plus it has the 7.3L gas engine – plenty of power for towing without all the added weight (reduced truck payload), cost, and maintenance of a diesel. We’ve been very happy with this engine and its ability to tow – no problem to tow our 2670MK at 65 mph all the way up & over the continental divide on I-70 from Denver.

We’ve only encountered one problem with the truck so far – related to its alarm system. Just this week we’ve been boondocking at a remote lake – a few other campers dispersed about. At 10PM one evening the truck alarm triggers and horn is blaring away. I scramble to remember where the keys are and turn off the alarm. I check the truck and see no problems, lock it, and not two minutes later the alarm goes off again. This repeats once more by which time I’m thoroughly embarrassed at disturbing the nighttime peace around the lake. I get the manual to figure out how to disable the alarm system while still being able to lock the truck – turns out it’s not possible to completely turn off the alarm system. However there is a way to disable the truck’s in-cab motion sensors, and just at the moment I figure this out a moth comes flying out of somewhere in the cab to flap around the overhead light. Ah ha! It must have been the moth triggering the internal motion sensors. I get the moth out of the cab, lock the truck, and 10 minutes later the alarm goes off again! This time I go in and find the correct settings screen to disable the internal motion sensors, and while doing so another moth comes flying out of some hidden corner of the cab. I shoe it outside but at this point do actually disable the motion sensors. Later, we see the interior cab lights turn on briefly but no alarm sound – there must have been a third moth inside. Anyway – I thought it might be helpful to share this information about the F-250 alarm system and its too-sensitive internal motion sensors – don’t want any other campers to get embarrassed like I did...

OK, surely that’s enough for now. Hope you’ve enjoyed the stories and find the information useful. Comments welcome but we’re out on a trip right now, often boondocking, so our replies may be delayed.

[NB Canada]

Since you have what appears to be the ability to spend money on this trailer just upgrade the axles and tires and your cargo capacity will be increased


2021 Imagine 2400 BH
2018 GMC Sierra 4x4 crew

[Easycamper]

The Schwintek slide system has advantages of compact size and weight (and I’m guessing costs to OEMs), but boy is it prone to problems. I shake my head that it’s so fragile with such tight tolerances, and relies on consistently being operated by the RV owner to avoid problems.

Did you know that you’re always supposed to hold the switch for 3-5 seconds after the slide closes or opens to sync the motors? It’s in all the Lippert training documentation but you may or may not be told that when you get your trailer. Why the control system isn’t programmed to do that automatically is beyond me. It should know that one end of the slide has reached its limit by the motor revolutions and amp draw. Or add a couple of limit switches if they need to.

[Rabbit]

Excellent and entertaining read with lots of good info. From forty year’s experience owning trailers, some “givens” I’ve learned which reinforces some of your experiences. Do not rely on truck or trailer dealers to give you correct information. Do your own research before the deal. Don’t trust the trailer dealer to select or install a hitch correctly. Nor should you trust them to swap and set up an existing hitch when you pick up a new trailer. Don’t assume the trailer dealer will keep your onboard battery charged while they have your trailer for service (they often let them go down lower than the battery’s recommended minimum). Don’t trust published specs or claims. Do read trailer manuals more than once front to back. Do check the tires and axles on your unit for real load ratings (I had one trailer with no actual leeway in the weight transfer to the TV or trailer level to avoid overloading the axels - forced to upgrade the axels).

Still, I would not give up trailering!

[goducks14]

Trailer Hitch RV has pics of the yellow sticker on every GD they sell. You can get a real good idea of real world weights.

[Easycamper]

There doesn’t seem to be a universal problem with Grand Design trailer weights though. The actual empty weight of my Reflection 150 was within 75 pounds of the brochure weight, and we’re still comfortably under GVWR when loaded up.

[stroguy]

Did you know that you’re always supposed to hold the switch for 3-5 seconds after the slide closes or opens to sync the motors? It’s in all the Lippert training documentation but you may or may not be told that when you get your trailer. Why the control system isn’t programmed to do that automatically is beyond me. It should know that one end of the slide has reached its limit by the motor revolutions and amp draw. Or add a couple of limit switches if they need to.

Wow, thanks for this. I hear the slide stop and we release the button and release the button. Here is an excerpt from Lippert manual. Make sure you read your specific manual, please.

[Hoopy Frood]

I notice there is no specific emphasis on not stopping the slide before it is fully open/closed. They do mention it, but not particularly forceful about warning against not stopping, or only opening the slide part way.

[CamperDiver]

The Schwintek slide system has advantages of compact size and weight (and I’m guessing costs to OEMs), but boy is it prone to problems. I shake my head that it’s so fragile with such tight tolerances, and relies on consistently being operated by the RV owner to avoid problems.

Did you know that you’re always supposed to hold the switch for 3-5 seconds after the slide closes or opens to sync the motors? It’s in all the Lippert training documentation but you may or may not be told that when you get your trailer. Why the control system isn’t programmed to do that automatically is beyond me. It should know that one end of the slide has reached its limit by the motor revolutions and amp draw. Or add a couple of limit switches if they need to.

Thanks a lot for this good information Easycamper, and thanks to everyone else for your replies.

I just now re-read through the GD owner manual provided with my trailer. Chapter on Slideout Systems says exactly this on page 131 with respect to operating the slideouts: "DO NOT hold the slide room switch past the point the room is fully extended/retracted or damage may occur."

So it seems there's a big disconnect between what Lippert says and what GD says. Another thing to call GD Customer Support about when I get a chance, if/when I do I'll post their feedback here.

Question: how would I find the correct Lippert technical documentation for my particular Schwintek slideout?

On another subject - there's a story I didn't tell about my other slideout (the big one with dining table & theater seats) - which is a Lippert Through Frame slideout. A key piece of information is that this slideout has automatic mechanical clutches that disengage the motor when the slideout reaches end of travel (out or in), making a clack clack clack sound until the user releases the switch. On my trailer the clutch doesn't release at the end of inward travel - so the motor stalls and pulls a lot of current (until switch released). Main room lights, if on, will dim to almost off while the motor is stalled. I called GD Customer Support about this and was told that it is entirely normal for the mechanical clutch to not release sometimes, and entirely normal for the motor to stall and dim the main room lights when this occurs. I pushed back hard on the GD support person asking how can it be OK for something that is designed to release to sometimes not release? He kept saying over and over that it's normal and I shouldn't worry about it. The longer story is that I originally thought this dimming of the main room lights was related to the clock time getting reset, but detailed measurements show that the voltage on the clock/radio circuit doesn't drop that much when the slideout motor stalls, because they are on different wiring circuits from the fuse panel. Hope this info proves helpful!

Regarding buying new axles and tires to get increased GVWR: I'm definitely not an expert but my understanding is that all of these things factor in to the GVWR and all need to be considered in any effort to increase it safely: the chassis (it's design/size and how the weight of the trailer is distributed on it and where the suspension is attached), the equalizers, the springs, the axles, the tires, (maybe the wheels), and the brakes. There's probably not much that can be changed about the chassis but if it's a limiting factor already then may not make sense to change other things. I think it's better to have an expert shop that knows how to assess all of these come up with plan that won't leave some part of the system as a dangerous weak point. I need to do more research on this but happy to take recommendations folks might have for good/expert suspension shops.

[FlyStar]

My big slide clutch does not clutch either. Well sometimes it does but not readily. I watch it come in and stop it right when the slide frame contacts the bulb seal at the bottom corner of the slide. Compass connect controls come in handy for this so you can see it all from outside the coach.

The warning not to hold the slide button down after full extrension or retract is for the in frame slides, not the Schwintek. As others have pointed out, proper operation of the Schwintek is to hold the button down after full extension and/retraction for 3 to 5 seconds.


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