Battery technologies coming down the road

[Second Chance]

My favorite new battery tech is the nano diamond battery (https://ndb.technology/). As with many new technologies, it is still being developed. Assuming it is successful, I like this tech because we can use nuclear to power the grid and we would then have a use for the waste generated for our portable needs. I am a huge fan of finding new uses for waste material.

I find it similar to when we started to use gasoline from lamp oil refining.

Low discharge rate over a long period of time with low energy density at this point. Other than the University of Bristol claim of a prototype in 2016, there are no known functional prototypes at this time. I'm not sure it's going to be useful for our purposes in its current state and I wouldn't hold my breath for when it may become available - if at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamon...stol_prototype

Interestingly, there is an almost-identical discussion going on over on the Escapees forum right now (and I did not start it).

Rob

[SolarPoweredRV]

The industry needs to be completely changed IMO
Once the world becomes aware of how devastating mining for the current materials are things will have to change.
Then what is the answer to everything else needed to build an EV? The interiors for example
I think we are generations away from anything changing

The only problem with this argument is that Oil is no less devastating to the environment (Exxon Valdez, Deep Water Horizon).

EV batteries only contain around 10% Lithium and there are better (more environmentally friendly) ways to produce Lithium being tested and proven right now. Most of the worlds Lithium supply comes from salt brines in Chile.

More EVs are being powered by Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. Iron and Phosphate are abundant minerals everywhere around the world.

Eventually, almost all the EV batteries will be recycled reducing the need for mining new materials (Redwood Materials and LiCycle are just two Lithium recycling companies with operations in the US).


As far as "Where everything else" that it takes to build an electric car comes from? The same places the materials to build the Internal Combustion Engine vehicles come from now.

[Butcher]

Australia produces about 46% of the Lithium and Chile produces half of that. Just saying.

Without a doubt, there is no free lunch and none of us can change what will happen. We can only hope that someone comes up with a product that is cheap and easy on the world. Sadly, I do not think that will ever happen any time soon.

I read somewhere that the Voyager probe is working on some type of radiation battery/generator and it's been almost 50 years still producing something. Not much, but something. Pretty impressive considering that probe should not really be working.

[NB Canada]

The only problem with this argument is that Oil is no less devastating to the environment (Exxon Valdez, Deep Water Horizon).


As far as "Where everything else" that it takes to build an electric car comes from? The same places the materials to build the Internal Combustion Engine vehicles come from now.

The Exxon Valdez was an accident. Hard to use that as an example
I would hate to see the impact of an explosion inside of a battery plant as well
The mine in Australia is the largest supplier and it is devastating to the area
And yes ICE vehicles depend on the oil industry but EVs do equally as much
Who is going to bother with the oil industry though once the ICE is outlawed? IMO no one and those that do will want to make money.
The future of EVs imo is bleak and only for the extremely rich

[deerislandbrew]

While doing some reading/research on EVs to appease my wife (I think we have the best car for us at this time, but I promised her I would look into it), I came across this CNET video on battery technologies currently under development. It may be old news to some of you, but I found it pretty interesting. Just because the video focuses on batteries for EVs doesn't mean the same technologies couldn't be useful for us in RV World.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/videos...-battery-tech/

Rob

The bigger picture for the RV community is that there is no viable electric truck replacement for towing at this time unless we all want to trade down to Rpods. The Ford f-150 ev has proven to be a dismal failure at towing moderate weight. I can't even imagine how ev tow vehicles could achieve parity with tow capacity and range of diesel and gas trucks. Boondocking would be a challenge with no recharging, unless you have massive solar arrays. Electricity use in campgrounds would have to be upgraded to 50 amp minimum, full hookup. Many other considerations as well. I think the bottom line is that the RV lifestyle will be discouraged and quite possibly forced out of existence if the trend of ev's and disappearing fossil fuel stations prevail. I think we RV'ers will be caught in the middle where the rush to force technology before its time, may create a crunch on our passion for traveling and independence.

[Butcher]

Fortunately, I will be long gone before this happens. At least too old to tow or even drive a large RV.

In the mean time, there are plenty of good camping days left. I'm going to go start up the electrical fireplace so I can enjoy a good fire.

[MoonShadow_1911]

The bigger picture for the RV community is that there is no viable electric truck replacement for towing at this time unless we all want to trade down to Rpods. The Ford f-150 ev has proven to be a dismal failure at towing moderate weight. I can't even imagine how ev tow vehicles could achieve parity with tow capacity and range of diesel and gas trucks. Boondocking would be a challenge with no recharging, unless you have massive solar arrays. Electricity use in campgrounds would have to be upgraded to 50 amp minimum, full hookup. Many other considerations as well. I think the bottom line is that the RV lifestyle will be discouraged and quite possibly forced out of existence if the trend of ev's and disappearing fossil fuel stations prevail. I think we RV'ers will be caught in the middle where the rush to force technology before its time, may create a crunch on our passion for traveling and independence.

It's a physics problem. You need a motor that is light enough to turn X number of RPMs and produce Y amount of torque at 24, 36, or 48 VDC and a "reasonable" amount of amperage, say 400 amps. Today's battery technology can't provide that kind of amperage at that voltage for a sustained period of time.

As the torque required increases, so does the required amperage. The higher the amperage, the faster the draw on the battery.

Personally, I'm impressed that Ford gets half of the distance when towing.

These increases with come in spurts, until there is a breakthrough that is cost effective. There is technology out there today that, in proof-of-concept, will do this, BUT the cost to manufacturer, or upscale this technology, would make the cost of an electric truck way out of reach for everyone.

[SolarPoweredRV]

It's a physics problem. You need a motor that is light enough to turn X number of RPMs and produce Y amount of torque at 24, 36, or 48 VDC and a "reasonable" amount of amperage, say 400 amps. Today's battery technology can't provide that kind of amperage at that voltage for a sustained period of time.

As the torque required increases, so does the required amperage. The higher the amperage, the faster the draw on the battery.

Personally, I'm impressed that Ford gets half of the distance when towing.

These increases with come in spurts, until there is a breakthrough that is cost effective. There is technology out there today that, in proof-of-concept, will do this, BUT the cost to manufacturer, or upscale this technology, would make the cost of an electric truck way out of reach for everyone.

Most EV architecture is either 400 volts or 800 volts.

The technology exists today to create a heavy duty pickup that is capable of towing our rather large RVs. For example: The Tesla Semi can haul 80,000 lbs for 500 miles on a full charge (the tractor weighs around 35k and the load is ~ 45k).

The thing that really reduces range when towing is the increased wind resistance that comes from hauling a Big o'l Box behind us and traveling at highway speeds. If we could drive at 30 mph all the way to our campsite, we might only loose 20% of the truck's rated range.

Heavy Duty trucks will come, whether from the current manufacturers, or from a newcomer, they will eventually become available with decent enough range.

[jjbbrewer]

Very interesting video, thanks Rob!

If my math is right ..

diesel fuel energy density = 7,663 watt-hours/kilogram
lithium ion battery energy density = 270 watt-hours/kilogram

I think I'll be waiting awhile for that EV TV.

[MoonShadow_1911]

Most EV architecture is either 400 volts or 800 volts.

The technology exists today to create a heavy duty pickup that is capable of towing our rather large RVs. For example: The Tesla Semi can haul 80,000 lbs for 500 miles on a full charge (the tractor weighs around 35k and the load is ~ 45k).

The thing that really reduces range when towing is the increased wind resistance that comes from hauling a Big o'l Box behind us and traveling at highway speeds. If we could drive at 30 mph all the way to our campsite, we might only loose 20% of the truck's rated range.

Heavy Duty trucks will come, whether from the current manufacturers, or from a newcomer, they will eventually become available with decent enough range.

The point I was trying to make was the greater the resistance on the motor, whether weight, speed, wind, or other, the greater the amperage required to maintain a consistent speed.

In the case of EVs, I'm not as current on that technology as maybe I should be.