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  1. #11
    Seasoned Camper
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    Lippert built the chassis. Grand Design will help but your chassis is warranted through them. I would reach out directly to them, especially if you’re the original owner. Almost all these companies are US based and I’ve had good experiences with Lippert, Grand Design, and Dexter when reaching out in the past. Hopefully they help.

  2. #12
    Seasoned Camper more tired since retired's Avatar
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    If you bought it new or used, if GD cannot help I would contact Lippert. It is possible this could be something they might help out with or may not be aware of the problem (though I doubt it). While the warranty on TT are not anything like a car or truck, the OEM (Lippert) of the frame/chassis does have a reputation they want to protect. If it turns out this is a "common' problem, reputations have been spoiled by lack of fixes (by company or how to directions),
    2020 F-250 XLT SuperCrew 7.3L Blue Ox SwayPro, 2020 Imagine 2600RB,
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  3. #13
    Site Team WhittleBurner's Avatar
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    From past experience Lippert is good about standing behind what they do. when we had a hanger failure they sent a truck to our site in Florida to fix it. Give Lippert a call in fact they would prefer you call them as they are the one's that made the frame not Grand Design.
    Last edited by WhittleBurner; 09-27-2022 at 01:09 PM.
    Marcy & Gary
    2014 Grand Design - Reflection 303RLS
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    We're in trouble now, the dog are bloggin'!
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  4. #14
    Seasoned Camper
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    Related to the WDH

    Quote Originally Posted by diventure View Post
    Just returned from a lengthy trip across the country. Discovered a couple of broken welds where the front cross members are welded to the frame (lower front cap area behind the battery boxes) and cracked frames. Pics attached. I am not overloaded on the hitch and carry what I consider minimal weight in the pass through storage. All travel was on provincial highways and speeds were kept at or below the posted speed limit primarily due to fuel costs. Just myself and spouse so no significant contents over and above the normal things. Nothing on the back bumper other than the OEM spare tire. I believe there have been cracked frame and broken weld issues with GD before but not sure if any of them involved the Imagine XLS. I will be placing a call to them but wanted to get any feedback first from members here who may have some experience with this sort of issue.

    Also, and unrelated to the frame cracks, I had a weld break on one of the two cross pieces that the battery boxes rest on. I was fortunate that only 1 of the 4 welds let loose as the one battery box was being held in place by the 2 screws into the cross piece and it was hanging precariously, somewhat supported by the propane line directly underneath it. Much further down the road I'm sure the entire set up would have given way, taking both batteries and the propane line with it. I secured the cross pieces well enough to get me back home but will have a welder strengthen things up properly. Might be a head's up for owners to double check the welds in this area.

    Thanks for any feedback.

    Attachment 43214Attachment 43215
    Wow, sorry to hear about this problem.

    Here's some info that might help you determine the root cause of your broken welds. If this is your problem, then the root cause is "poor quality metal" in the frame AND a weight distribution hitch (WDH) that's adjusted to tightly for the driving terrain.

    No doubt, lots of people are going to say the WDH has nothing to do with this, but it probably has more to do with the root cause than the metal.

    https://youtu.be/fHk5oThyHL8
    One concern with using a weight distribution hitch WDH
    1:35, 2:07 - 2:15, 4:44


    how things get bent. 14:30 - 18:30
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCgRiVNaXFc

    If you tow with a weight distribution hitch (WDH) you should watch this video and pay particular attention to the discussion between 14:30 and 18:30, when the tow vehicle rear axle is lower than the tow vehicle front axle and trailer axles. In this situation the torque created by the WDH is magnified and can bend the trailer frame or truck frame. The solution is to disconnect the WDH when traveling on uneven surfaces like this.

    Since the broken areas are somewhat rusted this may have happened some time back. Think back to times when you crossed a rough road, curb, big dip in the road, etc. I check for cracks frequently. My WDH is rated at 1000 lbs and before connecting the WDH I raise the back of the truck until the rear wheels just leave the ground. My WDH is very tight, so I pay particular attention the ruts, dips, bumps, etc. I keep it this way because the trailer tows much better.


    Best of luck,
    Dustin
    Dustin and Doris

    2018 2600RB
    2016 Tundra: 5.7L with towing package.

  5. #15
    Site Sponsor Capt Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toolman.dustin View Post
    My WDH is rated at 1000 lbs and before connecting the WDH I raise the back of the truck until the rear wheels just leave the ground.
    Dustin
    And you do this how?
    Robert and Chris
    2021 Imagine XLS 22MLE
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  6. #16
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    Broken welds and rust

    Quote Originally Posted by toolman.dustin View Post
    Wow, sorry to hear about this problem.

    Here's some info that might help you determine the root cause of your broken welds. If this is your problem, then the root cause is "poor quality metal" in the frame AND a weight distribution hitch (WDH) that's adjusted to tightly for the driving terrain.

    No doubt, lots of people are going to say the WDH has nothing to do with this, but it probably has more to do with the root cause than the metal.

    https://youtu.be/fHk5oThyHL8
    One concern with using a weight distribution hitch WDH
    1:35, 2:07 - 2:15, 4:44


    how things get bent. 14:30 - 18:30
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCgRiVNaXFc

    If you tow with a weight distribution hitch (WDH) you should watch this video and pay particular attention to the discussion between 14:30 and 18:30, when the tow vehicle rear axle is lower than the tow vehicle front axle and trailer axles. In this situation the torque created by the WDH is magnified and can bend the trailer frame or truck frame. The solution is to disconnect the WDH when traveling on uneven surfaces like this.

    Reases the broken areas are somewhat rusted this cause have happened some time back. Think back to times when you crossed a rough road, curb, big dip in the road, etc. I check for cracks frequently. My WDH is rated at 1000 lbs and before connecting the WDH I raise the back of the truck until the rear wheels just leave the ground. My WDH is very tight, so I pay particular attention the ruts, dips, bumps, etc. I keep it this way because the trailer tows much better.


    Best of luck,
    Dustin
    The rust at the welds may not be simple corrosion. As cracks initiate and grow, the flexing increases in the crack. High pressure and rubbing results in oxidation and the creation of rust through a process called fretting. I would guess these cracks grew over the long trip with cycles from many road bumps.

  7. #17
    Seasoned Camper
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt Bob View Post
    And you do this how?
    The weight being lifted by the jack when I do this is right at 3780# (tongue and rear axle). I'm a little over the limit of the jack (3500#) but lifting is not really a problem. I've measured this weight a few times to make sure. The most important thing to remember if you do this is: when the rear tires leave the ground the truck and trailer can roll (unless you're in 4WD), so it's important to chock the wheels before lifting the rear axle off the ground and make sure you're on pretty level ground. I don't attach the WDH until I move the trailer to a pretty level spot.

    Dustin
    Dustin and Doris

    2018 2600RB
    2016 Tundra: 5.7L with towing package.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by toolman.dustin View Post
    Wow, sorry to hear about this problem.

    Here's some info that might help you determine the root cause of your broken welds. If this is your problem, then the root cause is "poor quality metal" in the frame AND a weight distribution hitch (WDH) that's adjusted to tightly for the driving terrain.

    No doubt, lots of people are going to say the WDH has nothing to do with this, but it probably has more to do with the root cause than the metal.

    https://youtu.be/fHk5oThyHL8
    One concern with using a weight distribution hitch WDH
    1:35, 2:07 - 2:15, 4:44


    how things get bent. 14:30 - 18:30
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCgRiVNaXFc

    If you tow with a weight distribution hitch (WDH) you should watch this video and pay particular attention to the discussion between 14:30 and 18:30, when the tow vehicle rear axle is lower than the tow vehicle front axle and trailer axles. In this situation the torque created by the WDH is magnified and can bend the trailer frame or truck frame. The solution is to disconnect the WDH when traveling on uneven surfaces like this.

    Since the broken areas are somewhat rusted this may have happened some time back. Think back to times when you crossed a rough road, curb, big dip in the road, etc. I check for cracks frequently. My WDH is rated at 1000 lbs and before connecting the WDH I raise the back of the truck until the rear wheels just leave the ground. My WDH is very tight, so I pay particular attention the ruts, dips, bumps, etc. I keep it this way because the trailer tows much better.


    Best of luck,
    Dustin
    Thanks for your reply Dustin. I've watched both videos (I've seen the first one before). The second one between 14:30 - 18:30 does articulate the challenges when towing with a WDH on uneven roads and to my non engineering mind, seems to make sense. That said, there isn't a road on this continent that is as smooth and flat as the salt flats. Pot holes, construction, frost heaves, etc. all contribute to the high axle/low axle scenario's that the video portrays and while my specific driving habits are always on alert for these type of hazards, sometimes it just happens and you've hit a bump or heave without realizing it's coming until it's too late. The suggestion that one should get out and disconnect the WDH prior to travelling on this type of terrain is a bit of a stretch though. As the poster in the first video alludes to, the suggestion that he should have turned around and not gone through the construction zone(s) is absurd.

    Concerning WDH in general, I'm using a nationally recognized WDH, sold and installed by dealers everywhere, and am well within my towing and hitch weights. My tow vehicle is more than ample for my trailer size. I've read through the correspondence (manual) that came with the hitch, including the original box it came in, and nowhere does it talk about dangers associated with using a WDH, other than saying that "severe bumps and badly undulating roads can damage your towing vehicle, hitch and trailer, and should be negotiated at a slow, steady speed." Common sense stuff in my view. I've had my trailer into a business specializing in trailers/hitches and also to my local GD dealer. Neither suggest for a second that the problem is with the WDH however neither can explain the cracks/breaks either.

    I believe that the stress on the frame has caused the weld breaks and frame cracks. My real concern is whether I'm going to be able to find the root cause of that stress. I have an appointment this week with a frame shop who specializes in "big rig" frames so will see what they come up with. I am also going to research alternate WDH set-ups to see if there is another type of WDH (other than the round spring bar that I have) that may reduce stress caused by uneven roads.

    Thanks again for your feedback.........Doug
    2021 Imagine XLS 22MLE
    2018 Ram 2500HD 6.7L Cummins Turbo Diesel 4X4


    "The simplest act of kindness trumps the greatest of intentions"

  9. #19
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    UPDATE

    I always find it helpful reading through various owner's problems with their rigs and what the final outcome was. Here's the Reader's Digest version to my saga of a cracked frame and broken welds. In a nutshell, both Lippert and Grand Design came through with some pretty terrific customer service.

    I contacted both Lippert and GD after taking my trailer to a number of "frame experts." No-one could come up with a solid explanation for why the welds broke and the frame cracked and the cross-member bent and cracked. Suggestions were made around too tight of turns with the wd hitch bars still attached, hitting pot holes at speed, too heavy duty wd hitch bars thereby not allowing proper flexing, etc. etc. Not one person in the industry admitted to having seen that type of damage/cracks before but as has been mentioned here, welding things back together seemed to be the obvious route to go. As I've said before, I am confident it was not due to excessive weight, rough roads or other type of abuse.

    Lippert were quick to jump on the situation and despite several weeks of back and forth with pictures, explanations, quotes, etc., they agreed to shipping me a complete new a-frame and cross-member to be installed on the trailer at their cost. Unfortunately, due to some ordering and shipping issues, it took several months to finally get all the pieces here and a local shop to get the re and re done. I paid the shop, sent Lippert the paid invoice and they sent me a cheque in the mail. Pretty impressive seeing as how I'm not the original owner however the trailer is still within the 3 year structural warranty.

    GD were also quick to respond. Despite not being the original owner and long past their warranty period, the GD Service Manager's response to me on my first phone call was that "GD does not abandon their customers just because they're not the original owners" and they would work towards a suitable solution. Again, after photos and explanations of the issue, it was agreed that once Lippert was done with the a-frame and cross-member replacement, I would take the trailer to an actual RV repair shop who would remove the lower front cap to see what, if anything, is going on behind the cap with respect to the front framework itself (which was likely the cause of the cross-member bending and cracking). Once the new a-frame was installed, my local RV shop took the cap off and sure enough, there were 3 broken welds in the aluminum framework which likely caused the front of the trailer to work against itself and cause the cross-member to bend/crack (remembering the cross-member is just a light piece of steel). It was noted as well that 2 of the 3 welds were really just tacks so wouldn't take much to break the weld with a bit of twisting of the frame.

    I submitted my paid invoice to GD (didn't bother to get a quote first before authorization as the trailer was tying up shop space). GD approved reimbursement of about 2/3rds of the cost to remove the cap, re-weld and strengthen the overall front framework structure and replace the bent lower front cap with a new piece. I received their reimbursement cheque quickly.

    At the end of the day, I have a new a-frame with significant additional supports welded onto the backside of the cross-member to really strengthen the entire front assembly. I have a new lower front cap and front framework that has had additional welding added to ensure the problem never occurs again.

    My trailer looks as good as new but even better, is structurally more sound than new. Despite problems some owners have had with GD and/or Lippert, I for one am very pleased at how they backed their products and supported their customer.

    That's my story.
    2021 Imagine XLS 22MLE
    2018 Ram 2500HD 6.7L Cummins Turbo Diesel 4X4


    "The simplest act of kindness trumps the greatest of intentions"

  10. #20
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    Frame cracks

    [QUOTE=diventure;483046]UPDATE

    I always find it helpful reading through various owner's problems with their rigs and what the final outcome was. Here's the Reader's Digest version to my saga of a cracked frame and broken welds. In a nutshell, both Lippert and Grand Design came through with some pretty terrific customer service.

    I contacted both Lippert and GD after taking my trailer to a number of "frame experts." No-one could come up with a solid explanation for why the welds broke and the frame cracked and the cross-member bent and cracked. Suggestions were made around too tight of turns with the wd hitch bars still attached, hitting pot holes at speed, too heavy duty wd hitch bars thereby not allowing proper flexing, etc. etc. Not one person in the industry admitted to having seen that type of damage/cracks before but as has been mentioned here, welding things back together seemed to be the obvious route to go. As I've said before, I am confident it was not due to excessive weight, rough roads or other type of abuse.

    Lippert were quick to jump on the situation and despite several weeks of back and forth with pictures, explanations, quotes, etc., they agreed to shipping me a complete new a-frame and cross-member to be installed on the trailer at their cost. Unfortunately, due to some ordering and shipping issues, it took several months to finally get all the pieces here and a local shop to get the re and re done. I paid the shop, sent Lippert the paid invoice and they sent me a cheque in the mail. Pretty impressive seeing as how I'm not the original owner however the trailer is still within the 3 year structural warranty.

    GD were also quick to respond. Despite not being the original owner and long past their warranty period, the GD Service Manager's response to me on my first phone call was that "GD does not abandon their customers just because they're not the original owners" and they would work towards a suitable solution. Again, after photos and explanations of the issue, it was agreed that once Lippert was done with the a-frame and cross-member replacement, I would take the trailer to an actual RV repair shop who would remove the lower front cap to see what, if anything, is going on behind the cap with respect to the front framework itself (which was likely the cause of the cross-member bending and cracking). Once the new a-frame was installed, my local RV shop took the cap off and sure enough, there were 3 broken welds in the aluminum framework which likely caused the front of the trailer to work against itself and cause the cross-member to bend/crack (remembering the cross-member is just a light piece of steel). It was noted as well that 2 of the 3 welds were really just tacks so wouldn't take much to break the weld with a bit of twisting of the frame.

    I submitted my paid invoice to GD (didn't bother to get a quote first before authorization as the trailer was tying up shop space). GD approved reimbursement of about 2/3rds of the cost to remove the cap, re-weld and strengthen the overall front framework structure and replace the bent lower front cap with a new piece. I received their reimbursement cheque quickly.

    At the end of the day, I have a new a-frame with significant additional supports welded onto the backside of the cross-member to really strengthen the entire front assembly. I have a new lower front cap and front framework that has had additional welding added to ensure the problem never occurs again.

    My trailer looks as good as new but even better, is structurally more sound than new. Despite problems some owners have had with GD and/or Lippert, I for one am very pleased at how they backed their products and supported their customer.

    That's my story.[/QUOT



    I am happy for your good ending, but know the process was long and frustrating. I had a very similar experience with my last camper, a Dutchman Denali fifth wheel. I had frame problems. The dealer and the manufacturer were of no help. I began contacting Lippert directly. I sent photos to Lippert and had several conversation with a Lippert tech support person. I arranged to have my trailer repaired at a different dealer by a mobile Lippert welding service. The dealer tech contact who assisted told me that the Lippert service group added 50-60 lbs of reinforcement steel in the process. I had to pay a portion is the cost to remove and reinstall the front cap. Like you, I was extremely pleased with Lippert customer service.

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