Converting to lithium...keep my converter (for now)?

[ajg617]

I would confirm with your battery manufacturer of choice because of the BMS potentially shutting down - a non-lithium aware charger may not be able to initiate re-charge. I asked that question of Battleborn because I wanted the BBs installed prior to delivery after which I'd replace the WFCO with a Progressive Dynamics and add a Victron shunt - but I also had solar as a backup. They said no damage but not full charge - enough to get me home.

Interestingly, I actually hit a boundary condition with the Progressive Dynamics - the factory 300W solar charged at such a rate, the PD was fooled and stayed at 13.6v - for 11 days until a tech call with PD. I had to disconnect solar and 110v, discharge the batteries and then plug in 110v in order for the PD to 'think' it was the primary charge source. Point being, they all have quirks.

[Butcher]

I base this statement on a video from Ray, at Love Your RV, that ran his LiFePo4 batteries with his OEM Converter for a couple of years before he finally upgraded his Converter to a Lithium Capable unit. For Ray, upgrading his Converter was not a priority because his Solar panels could get his batteries to 100% SOC, however, he did spend his summers at a stationary location and his experience showed only a 53% SOC from the OEM Converter.

I have seen that video before but all he has are words to back up his statement and he is also 'selling' the WFCO 'AD' version converters. I think I have mentioned before. I don't believe anyone. I believe facts and as far as I am concerned, he has none. Just a salesman that is sharing his opinion.

It is too easy to find the facts on lithium battery charging and decide what is right or wrong.

Really, How can you say for certain it's 53% charged? That is a pretty exact figure and since LifePo4 charging curve is so flat, how can you determine that?

[SolarPoweredRV]

I have seen that video before but all he has are words to back up his statement and he is also 'selling' the WFCO 'AD' version converters. I think I have mentioned before. I don't believe anyone. I believe facts and as far as I am concerned, he has none. Just a salesman that is sharing his opinion.

It is too easy to find the facts on lithium battery charging and decide what is right or wrong.

Really, How can you say for certain it's 53% charged? That is a pretty exact figure and since LifePo4 charging curve is so flat, how can you determine that?

Well, first of all, I have been watching Ray's videos since before he had sponsorships and their tenor hasn't changed. He is also up front about the company supplying products to him and he discloses that they have no control over what he says about their product, I believe his evaluations are fair, he says when he doesn't like something and he gives honest feedback to the manufacturers about how they can improve their product (look at his original review of his sewer hose and his follow up videos after he installed the storage box from the same manufacturer).

Secondly, Ray used to be a Television Repairman and one thing he truly loves is Electronics. He has done several reviews on his Solar system and he has an installed Shunt which will give him the "Exact" stats like his batteries are only charged to 53%. The shunt counts electrons in and out to determine a battery's State of Charge, not just voltage.

Thirdly, it is common knowledge that OEM Converters are not capable of fully charging LiFePo4 batteries, consequently, what would Ray gain by saying that his OEM Converter only charged his battery bank to 53% and not 68% or 77%, there is nothing gained by him using a lower number than what his actual number is.

I have been interested in Lithium batteries and LiFePo4 batteries for a long time and I am well researched on the subject. Ray is the only person, on video, or in print, that has ever produced a real number for exactly what SOC an OEM Converter will charge a LiFePo4 battery bank too. If you have found any other evidence based number for OEM Converter SOC please post it. I do understand that it is common belief that OEM Converters only charge LiFePo4 batteries to ~80%, but Ray's Real World Experience, indicates that that number is only wishful thinking.

[xrated]

I have seen that video before but all he has are words to back up his statement and he is also 'selling' the WFCO 'AD' version converters. I think I have mentioned before. I don't believe anyone. I believe facts and as far as I am concerned, he has none. Just a salesman that is sharing his opinion.

It is too easy to find the facts on lithium battery charging and decide what is right or wrong.

Really, How can you say for certain it's 53% charged? That is a pretty exact figure and since LifePo4 charging curve is so flat, how can you determine that?

Fact: 3.45V per cell or 13.8V for the battery is considered to be a fully charge LFP battery. I'm not talking "charging voltage", I'm talking 13.8V Battery voltage as read directly from the battery terminals with no load on it.

Fact: An accurate shunt that is connected to the Neg terminal of the battery will count charge amps and discharge amps into and out of the battery. Once the battery is fully charged and the shunt is synced to indicate full SOC, it will countdown the amps going through it and give you the result in % of SOC remaining.

Fact: It takes more voltage than 13.8V to fully charge a LFP battery. 13.9V will fully charge it....so will 14.0V, so will 14.2V, so will 14.6V. The difference in those charging voltages is simply the amount of time that it will take to full charge the LFP battery

Personal Experience. My WFCO 9855 (OEM charger in my Momentum), would never output more than 13.5V, and that voltage reading was taken at the battery cutoff switch. The actual voltage reaching the battery for charging was even less than the 13.5V because of voltage drop produced by high resistance devices inline with the cable on it's way to the battery. Those devices included the actual battery cutoff switch itself, the auto reset breaker the power went through, connection points on terminal strips, and the internal resistance of the small (6ga wire) itself.

When I bought a new converter/charger, a Meanwell NPB-750-12 and installed it, I moved it closer to the battery, used 2ga welding cable, replaced the battery cutoff switch, replaced the auto reset breaker, cleaned all terminal points, and made sure of good crimp connections all the way to the battery. The results were impressive....going from .6V voltage drop to the battery....down to .1V drop from the charger to the battery.

So looking back at what I just wrote, the original 13.5V output from the WFCO charger and all the voltage drop points along the way, caused the battery to be getting just 12.9V....maybe an even 13.0V That number 13.0V is .8V shy of even being enough to get the battery to full charge. So yes, it is safe to say that my battery (LFP) would never fully charge with the WCFO charger. It is also safe to say that when the new Meanwell charger was installed (output voltage of 14.2V) if I had not eliminated all the issues with voltage drop, the battery would have been receiving somewhere around 13.6V and it too would have never fully charged my LFP battery.

Once the charger was replaced with the Meanwell, relocated closer to the battery, and all the voltage drop issues were resolved, Charging current is now 42 to 42 1/2 amps.....and that is on a charger that is rated to output 43 amps.

[Butcher]

Not starting a fight. As I mentioned, I do not trust anyone and I have watched his video's. I work in the automotive field and just because a professional mechanic says something, does not mean much to me. I worked with a lot of factory engineers and I had the same feeling. Words mean nothing, facts and data mean so much more.

I did post a video where graphs, charging voltages, etc were shown. Not to say I trust that guy anymore than others, but when I see numbers, graphs, etc, I feel more comfortable about how things work. You may disagree with that persons video. That is ok.

According to WFCO, their converters can charge up to 14.4v for up to 4 hours. Then it will drop down to 13.6v. That would give a cell voltage of 3.4v if left on that voltage. Sure, it may take some time, but once the voltages will even out, the current will stop flowing.

3.4v is not 100% charged on a LifePo4 battery. I never mentioned it was. I just feel that it is certainly not at 53% either. I can understand if his converter was only delivering 13.2v, then it might be true that it only charged it to 53%. If that is the case, then I suspect that his converter was faulty and using a faulty converter to prove you are right is odd. If you have voltage drops and that is causing a lower charging capability, that is not the fault of the converter. It would seem odd that your sales pitch to purchase a new converter is based on connection issues. I do not recall Ray showing voltages to his batteries before/after. I do not have time to watch the video again and I will stand corrected if he has.

Have I ever tested my stock WFCO converter? I do not think so, so it's best to say no. I automatically elected to purchase a converter that would deliver a capacity that would charge my batteries faster before I installed the batteries. I could not see 55A charging my batteries at the speed I wanted to. My charging voltage is set to 14v and my BMS is set to 3.45v. I consistently see currents of +45A [to each bank] when the batteries are low. If I raise my charging voltage, I have seen higher currents, but not much more.

I am just not sold that if I had a stock converter, that was working per WFCO's specs, would keep my batteries at half capacity. That is it in a nutshell. If you believe that, good for you. All of us can research the data that is out there. There are plenty of people that share their opinions. It's up to us to decide what you believe is right for you.

[xrated]

Not starting a fight. As I mentioned, I do not trust anyone and I have watched his video's. I work in the automotive field and just because a professional mechanic says something, does not mean much to me. I worked with a lot of factory engineers and I had the same feeling. Words mean nothing, facts and data mean so much more.

I did post a video where graphs, charging voltages, etc were shown. Not to say I trust that guy anymore than others, but when I see numbers, graphs, etc, I feel more comfortable about how things work. You may disagree with that persons video. That is ok.

According to WFCO, their converters can charge up to 14.4v for up to 4 hours. Then it will drop down to 13.6v. That would give a cell voltage of 3.4v if left on that voltage. Sure, it may take some time, but once the voltages will even out, the current will stop flowing.

3.4v is not 100% charged on a LifePo4 battery. I never mentioned it was. I just feel that it is certainly not at 53% either. I can understand if his converter was only delivering 13.2v, then it might be true that it only charged it to 53%. If that is the case, then I suspect that his converter was faulty and using a faulty converter to prove you are right is odd. If you have voltage drops and that is causing a lower charging capability, that is not the fault of the converter. It would seem odd that your sales pitch to purchase a new converter is based on connection issues. I do not recall Ray showing voltages to his batteries before/after. I do not have time to watch the video again and I will stand corrected if he has.

Have I ever tested my stock WFCO converter? I do not think so, so it's best to say no. I automatically elected to purchase a converter that would deliver a capacity that would charge my batteries faster before I installed the batteries. I could not see 55A charging my batteries at the speed I wanted to. My charging voltage is set to 14v and my BMS is set to 3.45v. I consistently see currents of +45A [to each bank] when the batteries are low. If I raise my charging voltage, I have seen higher currents, but not much more.

I am just not sold that if I had a stock converter, that was working per WFCO's specs, would keep my batteries at half capacity. That is it in a nutshell. If you believe that, good for you. All of us can research the data that is out there. There are plenty of people that share their opinions. It's up to us to decide what you believe is right for you.

My "sales pitch", which is not a sale pitch for a different converter was a fact that I experienced. My WFCO 9855 would NEVER get to 14.4V for four hours....in fact, I never had it go to 14.4V EVER. That's the reason for the new converter. I had read in several places that was a common issue for that converter, and I apparently had one that had the same issue.

My point about explaining the voltage drop stuff was to show others that no matter what converter you have....PD, WFCO, Meanwell.....it doesn't matter. If you have poor wiring/connections that cause voltage drop to the battery, you are not getting the full benefit of that charger. I even pointed out that my new one, that puts out 14.2 on the setting that I have it on, was not able to charge my battery correctly because.....nothing wrong with the charger, but plenty wrong with the wiring and terminations and components.

And as far as being fully charged, 3.45V per cell or 13.8V is considered fully charged with an LFP battery.....but trying to charge at 13.8V will take a life time....thus the higher charging voltages.....and I never stated that you said anything about 13.4 and fully charge. All I was doing is pointing out that 3.45V per cell is considered to be fully charged for a LFP

[Butcher]

Your points are valid, proper connections, gauge, and equipment is always a good start. I think it was Ray on YouTube that got me questioning his thought process. The only way I could agree with that statement is if there was something wrong, ie broken or poorly installed.

I suspect others will find this thread someday and just think it's some butcher trying to stir up things.

[Riverbug]

Well, I may have forced a move up. Just returned from Gulf State Park (Alabama), where I dropped my trailer at a storage yard near there. Will return near New Years to use it for a 3 month stay in the park. Proceeded to unload cloths/perishables we didn't want to leave in it for 3 months. Got the crescent wrench out to disconnect the 2 6v while in storage. DW needed to open a slide, and a hand with stuff, so helped her. Buttoned it all up and drove away. Next day, about 650 miles away, remembered "The Batteries!" Shoot, now parasitic draw will surely drain them down to zero over the coming months. So may need to haul the 5 yr old grp 24 that came with the trailer back with me in Jan., or find something to buy there the day we arrive.... not relishing using the old one (it works, but how well is the question) and not keen on the idea of trying to quickly find replacements there....might, might not....

But....my 2 Grp 31 AGM's used for my boat trolling motor are going on year 12 next summer (!!!) So time now to change them out for lithium's. And since I never use the boat and the trailer at the same time, with the lighter weight it will be practical to move them from one to the other when needed.

So, the burning RV related question, if I buy them now for shared use -

How tough will it be to swap out the stock WFCO converter for one that is lithium enabled, in the campground?

OR, even if they won't fully charge, can I get buy using the stock converter and postpone the conversion until I get the trailer home in the spring, where I would have all the tools and time needed to take on the project? (ie - we won't be trying to live out of it while the project is under way).

Do you know what model WFCO you have?

[xrated]

Your points are valid, proper connections, gauge, and equipment is always a good start. I think it was Ray on YouTube that got me questioning his thought process. The only way I could agree with that statement is if there was something wrong, ie broken or poorly installed.

I suspect others will find this thread someday and just think it's some butcher trying to stir up things.

Well, there are probably those that will/maybe think that, but hopefully, what they will see is two or three or more folks holding an intelligent discussion that may or may not completely agree with the other views. Yet, they are respectful of each other and can carry on a conversation without it turning ugly and move towards it actually being educational for some folks. Hopefully, that is being achieved here.

[SolarPoweredRV]

Not starting a fight. As I mentioned, I do not trust anyone and I have watched his video's. I work in the automotive field and just because a professional mechanic says something, does not mean much to me. I worked with a lot of factory engineers and I had the same feeling. Words mean nothing, facts and data mean so much more.

I did post a video where graphs, charging voltages, etc were shown. Not to say I trust that guy anymore than others, but when I see numbers, graphs, etc, I feel more comfortable about how things work. You may disagree with that persons video. That is ok.

According to WFCO, their converters can charge up to 14.4v for up to 4 hours. Then it will drop down to 13.6v. That would give a cell voltage of 3.4v if left on that voltage. Sure, it may take some time, but once the voltages will even out, the current will stop flowing.

3.4v is not 100% charged on a LifePo4 battery. I never mentioned it was. I just feel that it is certainly not at 53% either. I can understand if his converter was only delivering 13.2v, then it might be true that it only charged it to 53%. If that is the case, then I suspect that his converter was faulty and using a faulty converter to prove you are right is odd. If you have voltage drops and that is causing a lower charging capability, that is not the fault of the converter. It would seem odd that your sales pitch to purchase a new converter is based on connection issues. I do not recall Ray showing voltages to his batteries before/after. I do not have time to watch the video again and I will stand corrected if he has.

Have I ever tested my stock WFCO converter? I do not think so, so it's best to say no. I automatically elected to purchase a converter that would deliver a capacity that would charge my batteries faster before I installed the batteries. I could not see 55A charging my batteries at the speed I wanted to. My charging voltage is set to 14v and my BMS is set to 3.45v. I consistently see currents of +45A [to each bank] when the batteries are low. If I raise my charging voltage, I have seen higher currents, but not much more.

I am just not sold that if I had a stock converter, that was working per WFCO's specs, would keep my batteries at half capacity. That is it in a nutshell. If you believe that, good for you. All of us can research the data that is out there. There are plenty of people that share their opinions. It's up to us to decide what you believe is right for you.

WFCO Converters are well known for not stepping up to their 14.4 voltage, no matter the SOC of the batteries (Lead Acid in this case).

WFCO Converters only use voltage to sense when to "Step Up" their output voltage. My WFCO Converter only ever put out 13.2v (this voltage was measured on the screen of the Lippert Automatic Leveling system vs an actual Volt Meter). Consequently, because LiFePo4 batteries operate at a higher constant voltage throughout their discharge cycle, it is very reasonable to accept that the OEM Converter was only producing 13.2 volts (because it is not sensing a need for higher voltage) which verifies the original statement that OEM Converters only charge LiFePo4 batteries to 53% SOC.