Changing to Lithium Batteries

[MoonShadow_1911]

I've attached a picture of my 381m. Forgive my ignorance, but iis't that already a bus bar on there in the backAttachment 43883?

There is. As a matter of personal preference, I would do a new bus bar and clean up the wiring. That way I know it'll handle the possible current evenly. Just my preference.

[HarryB]

We have a 2022 Reflection 341rds:

October, 2022: While we were parked at Meramec Valley camp ground in Cuba, MO. We saw that our batteries were not charging as expected. They would only charge to about 30% max. We were connected to a 30-amp service, our camper is 50-amp.

Then we moved to America’s Best campground in Branson MO. connected to 50 amp, and I started doing some research to find out why we were not getting the batteries charged.

I called Grand Design and after a short conversation they told me that the converter in our camper was not compatible with Lithium batteries. (We have two 100-amp Battle Born Batteries).

The converter we have is a Progressive Dynamics Model #PD9260C , so I called Progressive Dynamics and they suggested we install Model # PD9160ALV. MSRP is $350.00.

Etrailer is a distributor for Progressive Dynamics, so I ordered one from them. Their cost is $257.13. I ordered it shipped overnight so I spent an extra $24.90 for that. That was a waste of money because, ordered on Thursday, it expected to be delivered on Monday, and it arrived on Tuesday.

I had to call Grand Design again to find out where the converter was located. It’s behind the false wall in the basement. Between the pluming and the electrical wires, it was very hard to reach. I had to do everything one handed, too tight to get both hands in.

Now the next issue was unplugging the old and plugging in the new. I had to pull out the breaker panel as it was plugged in behind it and couldn’t be reached from inside the basement.

Everything back together and within a couple of hours our batteries are 100%.

When I ordered the camper I told the salesman I wanted two Battle Born batteries, I expected they would know if anything like the converter was not compatible.

[SolarPoweredRV]

I've attached a picture of my 381m. Forgive my ignorance, but iis't that already a bus bar on there in the backAttachment 43883?

The Buss Bar that MoonShadow was referring to is a technique for wiring multiple batteries together (in Parallel) that allows each battery to contribute their full power potential to the load. These would be new Buss Bars (one positive and one negative) that all the battery cables would be attached to and then your load would be attached to the Buss Bars versus directly attaching the load to the battery. Using Buss Bars is the only method to ensure each battery can contribute 100% of it's energy to the load.

Here is an example of the type of Buss Bars we are talking about:

Additionally, I have attached a research paper explaining why you want to use the Buss Bar system versus simply cabling all the batteries together:

[SolarPoweredRV]

Alright guys. Thank you for all the input. After reading all the comments and linked threads, I am convinced on Lithium since I can get the cheaper ones (Ampere) for ~350 a piece.

My converter is WF-9855 which I believe is not optimized for Lithium. So looks like I will eventually need to get that. Otherwise, it sounds like it's completely plug and play?

One thing I'm just a little concerned about is the 32 degree charging. I don't plan on ever going in the REALLY cold, but when we went it was probably as cold as we would go and it dipped down to about 28-30 degrees in the middle of the night. Is this actually a concern since the batteries are inside the front compartment. As far as I know the underbelly does get some risidual heat from the furnace? But even if it didn't, I would assume it would be 5-10 degrees warmer inside regardless? Lastly, as long as the batteries are good, it's not like I will have to charge them in the middle of the night when it's coldest anyways. Any experience or input on this?

Any recommendations for a converter?

Last question is whether there is any reason to get 2 100ah over 1 200ah version?

There are a few ways to address the 32 degree LiFePo4 issue. The first is to understand exactly what the issue is... Lithium batteries can not be charged if the internal battery temperature is 32 degrees, or below. They can be discharged, they just can't be charged.

The first method to address the issue is to purchase batteries that have a cold temp charging cut-off. The best way to verify that the battery (actually it is the internal BMS) has cold temp protection is to view a tear down video of a battery brand you are interested in. Both Will Prowse and Lithium Solar's YouTube channels feature Lithium battery tear downs and you should be able to search YouTube to find one of their videos on the battery you are interested in purchasing.

The second method is to simply not charge if your batteries might be below 32 degrees. If you are Boondocking and you do not have a Solar System this should be easy because you would need to consciously run the Generator, and you can put that off till after the temps have risen enough to thaw out a cold battery (remember; the internal temp of the battery is what matters, not the air temperature, so, give the battery plenty of time to warm up after a cold night).

You can also install your batteries in a heated hold or under the dinette (or inside a closet) inside the coach to ensure the batteries won't get below 32 degrees.

If you are camping and you have Shore Power, simply turn off your Converter's breaker (and turn off your Solar System if you have one) until the temperatures get warmer. Alternatively, you can disconnect the battery and run on the Converter's power.

Additionally, you can install a 12 volt warming mat for your batteries to keep them warm when the temps drop.

I would recommend getting a Progressive Dynamics Converter. Progressive Dynamics has a very good reputation and I have read about some issues with the WFCO "Auto (Lithium) Detect" Converters not working properly with Lithium batteries.

I believe in a different thread you mentioned you have an Onan Generator. Your Generator will need a lot of energy to start and two 100ah batteries can provide more energy, in a short burst, than a single 200 ah battery. The reason is because each Lithium battery has an internal Battery Management System (BMS) that limits the current output of the battery to protect the battery from overheating, generally, a 100ah LiFePo4 battery is limited to 100 amps of power output. If you use a Buss Bar system to attach the batteries to your load, each battery can supply 100 amps of energy to start your Generator (total of 200 amps).

Unfortunately, many of the 200ah batteries use the same BMS as the 100ah batteries, consequently, many 200ah batteries are limited to the same 100 amps of power output as the 100ah batteries.

See post #13 in this thread for an explanation of how and why you should use a Buss Bar system when you have multiple batteries.

[Second Chance]

Moved to Electrical Systems and Wiring.

Rob

[ajg617]

The converter we have is a Progressive Dynamics Model #PD9260C , so I called Progressive Dynamics and they suggested we install Model # PD9160ALV. MSRP is $350.00.

When I ordered the camper I told the salesman I wanted two Battle Born batteries, I expected they would know if anything like the converter was not compatible.

The 9160ALV has one quirk. See my post #12 here https://www.mygrandrv.com/forum/show...ssive+dynamics especially if you have solar. You still may want to order the pendant.

Dealer installed the Battleborns I purchased prior to delivery - what a mess. I had to completely re-install them correctly. Post #10 here has before/after pictures. https://www.mygrandrv.com/forum/show...-on-cable-size

[Malco1]

I have a 2021 381m and 2 standard batteries are toast. I had to wake up 3x overnight while boondocking to turn generator on for a little bit so they don't go below 12v. I have a few questions that I bolded in the post.

I'm torn on whether I should convert to LiFePO4 and what kind to get.

I have been using my trailer a few times a year at campgrounds (hence why I never noticed the bad batteries). We just boondocked for the first time and liked it so I imagine that will happen a few times a year now. So it's not like I NEED lithium batteries, but honestly keeping up with the water refilling has been a pain in the butt and possibly even what killed the batteries (it gets to 120 degrees here in PHX). Thoughts on this if it was you deciding?

Does my 2021 381m already come with everything needed for me to just drop the batteries in or do I have to change chargers or cables/wires?

I understand that with batteries you get what you pay for. But I'm wondering with how much I use them, what difference I will feel between the higher and lower quality batteries? For example I know Battle Born is $800+, while Ampere Time on Amazon is $350. HUGE difference in price.

Thanks guys!

Last year Battle Born had a sale on Black Friday, I think I paid $650 for a standard 100Ah battery. That was on Black Friday only. You could wait until Fri and take a look at their website. I think the big difference in LiFePO4 batteries is the BMS. If you go on You Tube, there are people that test LiFePO4 batteries and some of the cheaper ones are missing certain key functions.

[cgjog182]

We bought four Battle Borns and a Go Power 3kw inverter/charger. It was a large financial commitment but during the “dry camping” occasions weÂ’ve had, the system worked flawlessly. Our Solitude 375 RES was not really intended for boondocking. A lot of systems require 120v but we managed nicely. WeÂ’re now permanent in Cathedral City, plugged in and staying that way so the batteries are for sale. Anyone with any interest, they can be had reasonably. [email protected]

[cmaddon]

I’m a 6 year FT’er and have a full solar power system that I not only use for boondocking, but also for reducing power use on metered pedestals. Have had all kinds of batteries, and now would not buy anything but Battleborn or SOK lithium. Despite what others might say, neither are overrated and both companies back their product well. People who say they’re overrated may not have ever owned either brand. With lithium, you get what you pay for, performance, safety, warranty, support. That’s my two cents.

[curtist1]

Last month out converter smoke 2018 29rl lite replace it with a WF 9855 ,I was told the last 2 # 55 means 55 amp what came out was 50 amp and a tag that came with it said lithium-ion switch to change charging modes between lead-acid and lithium batteries so if I wanted to change I could we only use 1 battery and always used shore power 50 amp if I can ,at home we reduce down to 30 amp and leave on all the time my battery is 5 years old [never been run down ]just a matter of time Research the WF 9855 on line .