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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Traveler View Post
    Well, I guess that's why it was moved to the Off Topic forum. I really appreciate knowledge and I've learned so much from the other members of this forum. If we have knowledge to give, why not? We don't have to read it. People get so much crap from advertisers, media, and politicians, almost always for self-serving reasons. If I can cause people to be more skeptical about what they hear from those sources, I consider it time well spent.
    Agree. I appreciate the opinions about the future of propane, especially in the RV context. I’m glad its unlikely I’ll have to convert my new TT to 100% solar anytime soon. 😊

  2. #12
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    Well put Tom Traveler.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit View Post
    Agree. I appreciate the opinions about the future of propane, especially in the RV context. I’m glad its unlikely I’ll have to convert my new TT to 100% solar anytime soon. ��
    While you may not need to convert soon, RVers may eventually need to convert to 100% Electric.

    With the batteries, Inverters and Solar panels available today, you could almost accomplish 100% Electric RVing. With a modest system and the proper appliances you can run everything on electricity today. The only issue with going 100% Electric in our RVs will be climate control and Hot Water.

    Industry wide, many manufacturers are already eliminating the Propane refrigerators in favor of 12v, compressor style, refrigerators and the popularity of Residential style refrigerators may eliminate the Propane refrigerator from the RV industry much sooner than any of us might imagine.

    Additionally, if the manufacturer chooses to install a Convection Microwave Oven, the oven below the burners can be eliminated. Add to this, the installation of an Induction cook top and Propane has been eliminated from everything except the Furnace and Water Heater.

    Now, powering all these wonderful Electric appliances are not going to happen with a single, Group 24, Lead Acid battery installed by the Dealer. However a modest Solar and Battery Storage system could easily operate all these appliances with out costing too, too much (for the MFG, You, on the other hand, are going to pay $$$ for this). Note: this modest system can be installed as a DIY project for much less than you can buy it from the Dealer or Manufacturer.

    When I say "Modest" system, I am thinking 400ah of Battery Storage, a 3,000 Watt Inverter and 800 - 1,000 Watts of Solar on the roof. This system could easily power your 12v fridge, Induction Cook Top, and run the Convection Microwave oven for an hour and still supply your furnace with enough 12v energy to last through the night.

    My hope is that eventually, the RV manufacturers begin to install Energy Efficient Heat Pumps that can heat, or cool, an RV along with creating all the Hot Water the coach needs as a by-product of the Heating or Cooling of the coach interior. Once this happens, then RVs can easily go 100% electric with a Solar and Battery system about twice the size of the "Modest" system described above.

    Note: Some RVers have already installed small residential Heat Pumps on their RVs simply because of the efficiency of the Heat Pump allows them to run Air Conditioning off of their Solar and Battery Storage system.

    Personally, I think eliminating Propane from RVs would be a good thing. You would have one less system to break and maintain. 100% Electric RVs will happen and you won't be forced to convert your older RV simply because you have Propane tanks onboard. I would recommend that once the 100% Electric RVs start arriving on the market, that you not replace your old rig with a newer Propane model, make the switch as soon as practical because finding Propane may get difficult and very expensive.
    David and Peggy
    2019 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.7L Diesel, Dually, Long Bed
    Running with 20k Reese Goosebox (Love It) and Ford Factory "Puck" system.
    Stopping with 8,000 lb Disc Brakes and Titan Hydraulic over Electric Brakes system.
    Powering all this fun with 1200 Watts of Solar, two Tesla, Model S, battery modules, 24 volt Victron Inverter.
    2018 Solitude 310 GK

  4. #14
    Big Traveler dryfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolarPoweredRV View Post

    Personally, I think eliminating Propane from RVs would be a good thing. You would have one less system to break and maintain. 100% Electric RVs will happen and you won't be forced to convert your older RV simply because you have Propane tanks onboard. I would recommend that once the 100% Electric RVs start arriving on the market, that you not replace your old rig with a newer Propane model, make the switch as soon as practical because finding Propane may get difficult and very expensive.
    Aren't there currently a lot of residential and commercial applications using propane? Seems that would keep propane available for a long time.
    2020 Reflection 273MK

  5. #15
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    Yeah, propane will be around for a long time to come. Although I do wonder how they'll make those on-demand water heaters work with all electric.
    Howard and Peggy
    2019 Momentum 351M, and 2018 RAM Cummins dually 6-speed.
    His: 1999 Honda Interceptor
    Hers: 2013 Spyder ST-S

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolarPoweredRV View Post
    While you may not need to convert soon, RVers may eventually need to convert to 100% Electric.

    Note: Some RVers have already installed small residential Heat Pumps on their RVs simply because of the efficiency of the Heat Pump allows them to run Air Conditioning off of their Solar and Battery Storage system.

    Personally, I think eliminating Propane from RVs would be a good thing. You would have one less system to break and maintain. 100% Electric RVs will happen and you won't be forced to convert your older RV simply because you have Propane tanks onboard. I would recommend that once the 100% Electric RVs start arriving on the market, that you not replace your old rig with a newer Propane model, make the switch as soon as practical because finding Propane may get difficult and very expensive.
    Interesting observation. An air conditioner (used for cooling) is already a heat pump (moves heat from inside to outside using the compression and expansion of a working fluid, or gas), so no more gains are available on the cooling side other than tiny gains in efficiency from newer compressor motors, etc. Being able to reverse the heat flow for heating (moving heat from outside to inside - what we commonly call a "heat pump" even though an AC only unit is a heat pump already) is great technology. According to the Dept. of Energy, efficiencies up to 300%, in the best cases, may be available. That means that for an input of 7,000 Btus of electricity, you could move 21,000 Btus of heat into your RV.

    Even if you had to pay for the electricity at the RV park, it would be substantially cheaper than buying propane. If you have a good sized solar system, it would be free, ignoring the initial cost of the solar system.

    Why did I pick 7,000 Btus before? Well, many larger RVs have 35,000 BTU/hr propane furnaces. Assuming a likely 60% efficiency, that furnace can put 21,000 Btus into the RV in an hour. To replace that with a heat pump with 300% electric efficiency would require 7,000 Btu/hr of electricity. That hour of electricity would use 171 ah of 12v battery storage power (7,000 Btus / 3412 Btus/kwh = 2.05 kwh = 2,050 wh / 12v = 171 ah).

    We recently stayed in southwestern Utah. It got down to or below freezing each night. We had shore power so the only thing we used propane for was heating. Based on propane fill frequency, we used about 160,000 Btus/day, all at night. At 60% efficiency, we put 96,000 Btus of propane heat into the RV each day. Using a 300% efficient air source heat pump would require 32,000 Btus of electricity or 781 ah of battery storage at 12v, each night, just for air heating alone. We also ran the electric fireplace and a small electric oil-filled heater a lot so I am significantly understating the battery storage that would be required to replace propane if we had used propane for all the heating.

    If you have a power hookup, all this in irrelevant. In fact, I plan to install an electric heat option to our furnace to eliminate the use of propane when hooked up. If you are boondocking in colder weather, you would need a good sized battery bank, particularly if you have any overcast days. Also if you are bookdocking, you would have to add in hot water, refrigerator, lights, cooking, and all other power uses into your power consumption. Needing a 2,000 ah battery bank would not be unreasonable for an all electric RV in a cool but sunny climate. An obvious work-around to the overcast day problem would be a good sized backup generator, either gas or propane (Oops!).

    Water heating as a by-product of cooling the RV is a great idea. Water heating as a by-product of heating the interior won't gain you anything as there is no waste heat available. A Btu into the incoming cold water will be one Btu less into the interior air.

    A lot of RVers probably don't boondock in cold weather so I think there are a lot of cases where an all electric RV might work, ignoring the cost. It wouldn't work for us.
    2021 Solitude 380FL-R
    Ram 3500 MegaCab SB DRW

  7. #17
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    Tom T...

    Your not really ranting. All you said is true. I was just trying to point out that the problem that the studies have is that they have not addressed propane directly... so the propane advocates say what they will. And frankly for rural dwellers like myself, propane is the cleanest and cheapest source of heat. I am rural and feel that I happen to be stuck in the middle. Electricity where I live is expensive and so are the electric heat pumps NY is advocating, so I am "stuck" with propane in my 10 year old home, which is modern and clean compared to so many of my rural neighbors...

    There are homes around me that still heat with wood... and even coal!!! MY neighbor is one of them. A "modern" coal furnace still stinks for god's sake. Why does he still do this?/// 'Because its cheap and so is he. I can't stand the smell, but b/c he's rural he gets away with it.

    And the drive to my job on cold still mornings is thru a valley loaded with wood burners... I can barely breath as I drive thru it unless I turn off the air intake in my truck.

    I'd like all carbon fuels to go away.... the problem is that doing so is expensive, and I am not sure how long it will take for electricity generation to also be carbon free..... NY is subsidizing a "local" nuclear plant. I am not sure that's a great idea... cause its old. But it is carbon free!
    Doug, Patti and our puppy Leo are from upstate NY.
    Imagine 2019 XLS 18RBE
    2021 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel

  8. #18
    Rolling Along
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit View Post
    Agree. I appreciate the opinions about the future of propane, especially in the RV context. I’m glad its unlikely I’ll have to convert my new TT to 100% solar anytime soon. ��
    When they outlaw gas cooktops, only outlaws will be cooking with gas.

    Just as an FYI, we lost all of our propane-fueled appliances in a tragic boating accident.
    2022 Solitude 378MBS-R
    2021 Ford F450 CC Lariat Ultimate FX4
    1966 Shasta Astroflyte (1 year restoration project that is going on year 6)

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadeo6472 View Post
    Tom T...

    Your not really ranting. All you said is true. I was just trying to point out that the problem that the studies have is that they have not addressed propane directly... so the propane advocates say what they will. And frankly for rural dwellers like myself, propane is the cleanest and cheapest source of heat. I am rural and feel that I happen to be stuck in the middle. Electricity where I live is expensive and so are the electric heat pumps NY is advocating, so I am "stuck" with propane in my 10 year old home, which is modern and clean compared to so many of my rural neighbors...

    There are homes around me that still heat with wood... and even coal!!! MY neighbor is one of them. A "modern" coal furnace still stinks for god's sake. Why does he still do this?/// 'Because its cheap and so is he. I can't stand the smell, but b/c he's rural he gets away with it.

    And the drive to my job on cold still mornings is thru a valley loaded with wood burners... I can barely breath as I drive thru it unless I turn off the air intake in my truck.

    I'd like all carbon fuels to go away.... the problem is that doing so is expensive, and I am not sure how long it will take for electricity generation to also be carbon free..... NY is subsidizing a "local" nuclear plant. I am not sure that's a great idea... cause its old. But it is carbon free!
    You are right. In a rural area where natural gas in not available, propane is a great choice. In north Idaho, not too long in the past, the wood heat pollution was horrible. It's gotten better as people have switched to pellet stoves and upgraded old wood stoves to cleaner models. Our electricity is probably less than half the price of yours, so that helps a lot too. Electric heat isn't such a deal killer out here.

    By the way, I've wanted to see upstate NY for a long time. That area, particularly the Finger Lakes and Lake Champlain, is on our list in the next several years.
    2021 Solitude 380FL-R
    Ram 3500 MegaCab SB DRW

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Traveler View Post
    You are right. In a rural area where natural gas in not available, propane is a great choice. In north Idaho, not too long in the past, the wood heat pollution was horrible. It's gotten better as people have switched to pellet stoves and upgraded old wood stoves to cleaner models. Our electricity is probably less than half the price of yours, so that helps a lot too. Electric heat isn't such a deal killer out here.

    By the way, I've wanted to see upstate NY for a long time. That area, particularly the Finger Lakes and Lake Champlain, is on our list in the next several years.
    As someone fortunate enough to have had my job send me to upstate NY regularly, I’d say move it up your list. It’s a beautiful place, and if you run out of things to do there is more beauty north, south and east of there. Letchworth State Park needs to be on your list right next to Niagara.

    If you like food, Rochester has some of the best barbecue I’ve ever come across. I could spend a year up there.
    John & Kathy
    2014 F250 Lariat FX4 6.2L SBCC
    2014 Reflection 303RLS
    SW Indiana

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