User Tag List

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 43
  1. #1
    Seasoned Camper
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Alpharetta, GA
    Posts
    123
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Will attempts to ban natural gas appliances include propane ?

    I am not a chemist, nor do I want this to start a political firestorm. However, I am smart enough to know that most anything ignited, let it be natural gas, propane and other flammable products will certainly emit or release "something" when its energy is released. This is one of the reasons why we have exhaust fans and warnings about not starting your car in the garage with the garage door closed.

    Not every federal environmental mandate is bad. I was VERY happy with the catalytic converter mandate in the mid to late 70s. Unless you had AC and a recirc button in your car, you were doomed, especially in stop and go traffic.

    That said, I can only imagine the story line here. A lot of despite people must have used a natural gas stove top to keep warm when their power went out during a cold snap. They got sick, blamed the manufacturer and the government for allowing such devices of death into their homes. The federal response: try to ban it. Obviously, I am not discounting the effects of burning natural gas, but that is why I use my overhead fan to suck up some or all of the particulates. The same reason I open the vent in my 22MLE when using the stove/stove top.

    The preverbal flood gates will open (if it has not done so already) So what is next? What impacts will this have not only on the stove and fire place industries, but other industries/manufacturers as well, especially if Propane is next.

    I guess the federal government should also ban all eating legumes as well, as the resulting methane will damage the micro and macro environment !
    Mitch and Alisa Frank
    2020 Imagine XLS 22 MLE
    2020 RAM 2500 Diesel

  2. #2
    Paid my dues 😁 FT4NOW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    4,570
    Mentioned
    136 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I predict this topic will become politcal, hope not.

    I think the real issue here is people not using proper ventilation while using gas type of stoves. Propane or natural gas water heaters, when installed correctly are vented to outside the house, but some people either don't know or don't care to run some type of ventilation while using a gas stove. Maybe education is the right answer vice a mandate. Mandates and laws can't solve everything.
    Last edited by FT4NOW; 01-10-2023 at 09:00 AM.
    2023 Momentum 398M-R
    2023 Ford F-450

    SOLD - 2021 Reflection 311BHS
    SOLD - 2017 Momentum 399TH

  3. #3
    Site Team Second Chance's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Wherever...
    Posts
    9,010
    Mentioned
    187 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Moved to Off Topic.

    Rob
    U.S. Army Retired
    2012 F350 DRW CC LB Lariat PS 6.7
    2020 Solitude 310GK-R, MORryde IS, disc brakes,
    Sailun LRG tires, solar, DP windows, W/D
    (Previously in a Reflection 337RLS)
    Full time since 08/2015

  4. #4
    Site Sponsor
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Posts
    388
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Good topic, but too early in the process to review and act on the proposal to ban natural gas stoves to know if it will include propane, much less whether natural gas stoves will be banned ultimately. Right now the word “gas” is being used as a shortened form when referring to natural gas. That’s not propane, but who knows where the activist politicians will try to push this. As I read the current issue, the discussion stems from a recent study that linked childhood asthma to home natural gas stoves (apparently no mention of propane). As usual, a study is being referenced as a blanket inditement of something without looking at the details, such as in this case, whether the gas stoves contributing to asthma we out of adjustment, in small confined spaces, or lacked adequate ventilation. I just hope sanity prevails, but that’s asking a lot of our government. IMO.

  5. #5
    Seasoned Camper
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    Glorious Upstate NY
    Posts
    263
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    NY hasn't yet, but is moving to ban new hook ups for natural gas, as well as the sale of new natural gas appliances. As for home propane for heat and cooking... well not even NY is thinking about ending rural propane use, not in NY, not for now.

    But eventually I believe that natural gas and propane will be artifacts of the past. "Eventually" though is a vague term, and propane in recreational and RV applications.... I don't see any movement to really ban sales of propane appliances and gas for that for at least a decade.... or two.

    Propane burns cleaner than natural gas and has more energy content per pound. And in rural areas where electricity is, shall we politely put it... less than reliable..... it's not going away soon.

    And then there is this.... Where i live the cost to replace a 100,000 BTU, $4,000, 98% super efficient propane furnace with a fully electric heat pump capable of heating a well insulated 2000 sq foot home is way over $10,000. Many rural residents can't afford it... and frankly elect bills up here are insane already. Our electric bill averages $175 a month, without air conditioning, with propane appliances for cooking, hot water, furnace, and dryer. What kills people around here is the electricity to pump water from deep wells thru a water filter and another pump to push the waste uphill to a septic system. I want to go solar but our property is well shaded by trees and a mountain. Its beautiful, but it ain't a cheap place to live.
    Last edited by Dadeo6472; 01-10-2023 at 10:17 AM.
    Doug, Patti and our puppy Leo are from upstate NY.
    Imagine 2019 XLS 18RBE
    2021 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel

  6. #6
    Site Sponsor
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    SW Indiana
    Posts
    1,956
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The data looks pretty damning. Living in a home with a gas stove significantly increases the risk of asthma in children. About the same level of increase as being exposed to engine exhaust in poorly ventilated areas.

    This is the kind of thing that may not need regulation. The threat of lawsuits may be enough to cause some manufacturers to withdraw from the market.

    As an engineer, my thought is that an integrated ventilation system might be an answer. Fan comes on when a burner comes on. But that might remove lower end stoves from the market as the price differential between electric and gas could increase.
    John & Kathy
    2014 F250 Lariat FX4 6.2L SBCC
    2014 Reflection 303RLS
    SW Indiana

  7. #7
    Seasoned Camper
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    Glorious Upstate NY
    Posts
    263
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jkwilson View Post
    The data looks pretty damning. Living in a home with a gas stove significantly increases the risk of asthma in children. About the same level of increase as being exposed to engine exhaust in poorly ventilated areas.

    This is the kind of thing that may not need regulation. The threat of lawsuits may be enough to cause some manufacturers to withdraw from the market.

    As an engineer, my thought is that an integrated ventilation system might be an answer. Fan comes on when a burner comes on. But that might remove lower end stoves from the market as the price differential between electric and gas could increase.
    Just to clarify, wasn't a recent study done by comparing natural gas stoves to electric? Yet propane burns much cleaner than N.G.

    But frankly does anyone really believe that a 5 year old cook stove is burning as cleanly as it did the day it came off the line? If you see yellow flame on a cook stove, its NOT burning clean. I am sure that most gas stoves, propane or natural gas, are emitting some CO, as well as a variety of stuff that causes asthma.

    When you cook with gas, any gas, you need to use forced ventilation. Open a window too.

    But even cooking on an electric stove produces too much water vapor for a sealed up modern house. And that's assuming you never burn anything you cook! Even an electric stove should be ventilated. Study after study in commercial and residential environments say don't cook without ventilation. Black mold. I've seen it and dealt with it. UGH.
    Last edited by Dadeo6472; 01-10-2023 at 10:59 AM.
    Doug, Patti and our puppy Leo are from upstate NY.
    Imagine 2019 XLS 18RBE
    2021 Ram 1500 EcoDiesel

  8. #8
    Seasoned Camper
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Posts
    398
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Dadeo6472 View Post
    Just to clarify, wasn't a recent study done by comparing natural gas stoves to electric? Yet propane burns much cleaner than N.G.

    But frankly does anyone really believe that a 5 year old cook stove is burning as cleanly as it did the day it came off the line? If you see yellow flame on a cook stove, its NOT burning clean. I am sure that most gas stoves, propane or natural gas, are emitting some CO, as well as a variety of stuff that causes asthma.

    When you cook with gas, any gas, you need to use forced ventilation. Open a window too.

    But even cooking on an electric stove produces too much water vapor for a sealed up modern house. And that's assuming you never burn anything you cook! Even an electric stove should be ventilated. Study after study in commercial and residential environments say don't cook without ventilation. Black mold. I've seen it and dealt with it. UGH.
    Woo boy! That small voice in my head keeps saying "Just let it go". But if forums are meant to impart information, let's wade in.

    First of all, propane does not burn "cleaner" than natural gas. I did a web search on that statement and every source claiming that propane burns cleaner than natural gas was a propane delivery service. If anyone can produce a credible source, other than a propane vendor, that says propane burns cleaner, I will issue a profound apology.

    Natural gas is CH4. Propane is C3H8. Propane is much denser at atmospheric pressure (that is, in normal air). That difference is generally meaningless. Both gases combust into CO2 and water vapor when burned with sufficient air, such as on a gas range. The desirability of a gaseous fuel, for cleanliness, is based on the ratio of H to C, hydrogen to carbon. The higher the ratio, the cleaner the fuel from a pollutant perspective and a CO2 (greenhouse gas) perspective. Natural gas has an H to C ratio of 4 to 1 or 4. Propane has a ratio of 8 to 3 or 2.67. Propane produces 21% more CO2 than natural gas for the same amount of energy or heat produced. Also, no commercial gas is completely pure. Both natural gas and propane, available commercially in the US, are highly pure but not completely. However, propane has slightly more contaminants than natural gas.

    Articles about the superiority of propane, usually from propane vendors, mention that as propane has more energy per cu. ft. than natural gas, it is more efficient. Propane has about 2,500 Btus per cu. ft. Natural gas has about 1,000 Btu per cu. ft. That is not only meaningless, it implies either ignorance or willful deception on the part of the author to claim that that makes propane better. A cu. ft. of diesel fuel has about 1,000,000 Btus per cu. ft., 400 times more than propane. Does that mean it is more efficient than propane? Of course not. Efficiency of fuels is only meaningful in two contexts. One is cost per unit of energy (Btus). The other is useful energy delivered per total energy consumed.

    Articles, again from propane vendors, claim that the combustion of natural gas releases methane. It does not. Yes, if you open the valve without lighting the flame, you will release methane, but why would you do that?

    In terms of safety, natural gas is lighter than air while propane is heavier than air. A natural gas leak, outside, will rise into the air and dissipate. Propane will pool near the ground and not dissipate quickly. If released into a closed space, they are equally dangerous.

    In terms of cost, the only valid comparison is the cost for an equivalent amount of energy. The comparison is usually $/million BTUs. Natural gas, delivered from your utility, will vary but will now be around $12/million Btus. Propane, at $4/gal is $44/million Btus, 3.7 times the cost of natural gas.

    For RVers most of this is moot as we can't use natural gas. Storing a reasonable amount of natural gas takes very high pressure and very strong cylinders. For a home, it is a no-brainer. No one with access to both would choose propane. As far as the proposed legislation, the issue, as I understand it, is indoor air quality, for health reasons. Propane does not burn any cleaner than natural gas in an open flame. The legislation probably doesn't address propane because the number of propane stoves in homes is so small in comparison to natural gas stoves that it disappears. I agree that any gas stove should probably be vented, but natural gas burns so clean on a stove (only produces water vapor and CO2 - which we also produce in our lungs) I question whether any adverse health conditions exist in the quantities we are talking about for cooking. A poorly adjusted flame can produce CO, which is deadly. As someone mentioned, using a cooking stove for heating in a power outage, which burns large amounts of gas, can be dangerous for health reasons.

    Someone mentioned the various states' efforts to ban natural gas for home heating because of climate change. They would require electric heating. That is also absurd and self-defeating. Recent natural gas furnaces (since 1990) are 96+% efficient. That is, 96% or more of the energy in the gas goes into heating the home. The other 3-4% goes up the chimney or out the vent. Right now, and for decades to come, the dirty little secret is that all of the electricity used to replace that natural gas heating will come from natural gas generation which is only about 60 to 65% efficient. (If anyone wants to understand why wind or solar don't factor in here, I'd be happy to explain that - it goes into "generation on the margin" issues.). As a result, these electric heating mandates will actually increase the use of natural gas, not decrease it. The cost to homeowners for heating these home will go up dramatically. Why are the politicians doing it? Because they think (rightly) that the public will think they are doing something to solve global warming when they are actually making it worse. I've always believed that politicians don't care about solving problems, they only care about APPEARING to solve problems.

    Ok, rant is over, Sorry all.
    2021 Solitude 380FL-R
    Ram 3500 MegaCab SB DRW

  9. #9
    Site Team traveldawg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Florida Space Coast
    Posts
    3,853
    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    94 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Wow! Really? In an RV forum? Aren't there better platforms to stir this up?
    Larry KE4DMG
    2022 F-350 KRU SRW LB - Airlift 5000+, ForScan, 37 RDS Aux Tank,
    2019 310GK-R - Sailuns; MorRyde IS; Disc Brakes; 20K Reese Goosebox
    Search kalakamods for my mods


  10. #10
    Seasoned Camper
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Posts
    398
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by traveldawg View Post
    Wow! Really? In an RV forum? Aren't there better platforms to stir this up?
    Well, I guess that's why it was moved to the Off Topic forum. I really appreciate knowledge and I've learned so much from the other members of this forum. If we have knowledge to give, why not? We don't have to read it. People get so much crap from advertisers, media, and politicians, almost always for self-serving reasons. If I can cause people to be more skeptical about what they hear from those sources, I consider it time well spent.
    2021 Solitude 380FL-R
    Ram 3500 MegaCab SB DRW

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

DISCLAIMER:This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Grand Design RV, LLC or any of its affiliates. This is an independent site.