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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dryfly View Post
    @SolarPoweredRV

    You seem knowledgeable about EV's, and I have a question. Given today's gasoline prices, comparing an EV that say travels 300 miles on a charge, what would be the fuel cost comparison on a 300 mile trip comparing an ICE vehicle using regular gasoline vs. a comparable weight EV? I know electricity prices vary, but just considering an average.
    Don't forget to factor in the higher initial cost of the electric RV.
    Howard and Peggy
    2019 Momentum 351M, and 2018 RAM Cummins dually 6-speed.
    His: 1999 Honda Interceptor
    Hers: 2013 Spyder ST-S

  2. #12
    Site Sponsor SolarPoweredRV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by traveldawg View Post
    I sort of agree with the point NB Canada made about using a 48VDC oil a camper - what's the point?

    12v is fine - has been for years, still is in any automotive product that isn't an EV and see no need for a mass change just because an EV has 48 volt drive motors. I just don't see an up side.

    Got a 48v solar system - just convert it down to 12v and move on. For all I know (and strongly suspect) that's what EVs do to power their computers, lights, accessories, etc. I has to cheaper to use existing 12v motors, lights, etc. than developing a higher voltage version (and making it proprietary to a particular EV).
    The change from 12 volt to 48 volt is for the accessories in the vehicle, not the drive motors. The traction batteries are 400 volts or higher and the drive motors run on AC power (generally 3-phase).

    The reason Tesla is making the switch is to reduce the weight and cost of the Copper wires inside the vehicle (there is almost 1 mile of wiring inside a car). With 48v the wire sizes can be reduced and heat sinks for the electronics can be smaller or, in some cases, eliminated. Additionally, any motors can be made smaller because of the higher voltage.

    Eventually, the 48v accessories will be cheaper because they can take advantage of using less materials in their manufacture, for example: a 48v motor can have fewer windings internally than a 12v motor because of the higher input voltage.
    David and Peggy
    2019 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.7L Diesel, Dually, Long Bed
    Running with 20k Reese Goosebox (Love It) and Ford Factory "Puck" system.
    Stopping with 8,000 lb Disc Brakes and Titan Hydraulic over Electric Brakes system.
    Powering all this fun with 1200 Watts of Solar, two Tesla, Model S, battery modules, 24 volt Victron Inverter.
    2018 Solitude 310 GK

  3. #13
    Site Sponsor NB Canada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolarPoweredRV View Post
    The change from 12 volt to 48 volt is for the accessories in the vehicle, not the drive motors. The traction batteries are 400 volts or higher and the drive motors run on AC power (generally 3-phase).

    The reason Tesla is making the switch is to reduce the weight and cost of the Copper wires inside the vehicle (there is almost 1 mile of wiring inside a car). With 48v the wire sizes can be reduced and heat sinks for the electronics can be smaller or, in some cases, eliminated. Additionally, any motors can be made smaller because of the higher voltage.

    Eventually, the 48v accessories will be cheaper because they can take advantage of using less materials in their manufacture, for example: a 48v motor can have fewer windings internally than a 12v motor because of the higher input voltage.
    But to completely change production across all manufacturing for just weight loss and less copper is not going to happen
    Perhaps at Tesla but I can’t see the world changing from 12 volt. Just pointless
    2021 Imagine 2400 BH
    2018 GMC Sierra 4x4 Crew 1840lb payload

  4. #14
    Site Sponsor Steven@147's Avatar
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    In the vehicles of today they have long been reducing the amount of copper and wire in them, and more and more fiber optic cable and CAN bus architecture requiring less wiring.

    Funny how a lot of us older folks look at these new EVs and say "So what". We are not so eager to jump on the hysterical band wagon and rush right out to buy one. Kind of like new cell phones, video games and the latest tennis shoe from Nike. Companies have done a great job of marketing and creating a market where normally there wouldn't be one, and telling us we have to have the latest stuff, and its working!. And now these companies have the consumer blowing their horn for them.
    As far as the infrastructure to support EV's, heck I read just the other day where they were asking EV owners to be conservative about electricity and put off charging until certain hours because of brown outs. So its not there yet.

    Now I'm not totally against EVs, they have their place, like in big cities, smog choked cities like LA, short trip work commutes. To me EVs are a tool, among other tools for households to get along in everyday life. Some will have a purpose for them, a lot of people wont. Some US states will have a lot more owners than other states. Can you see a lot of EV owners in big rural states like Montana, Texas, New Mexico, etc? Probably not.

    Since back in the late 50's - 70s and later, over a period of a long time, and people moving farther and farther into suburbia, Detroit was successful by indirectly killing off a lot of mass transit systems by telling us we had to have the latest car, "See The USA In Your Chevrolet", kind of stuff. Then again in other places people were afraid of getting mugged on mass transit systems. So the EV market will get there eventually through the marketing hype being put out there, just not as fast as people may believe or hope.

    Long cross country EV trips? Not for a long time for the masses cause I don't think in this, the spoiled society, EV owners are going to set around at a charging station for hours to charge, or just to be the next person in line to plug in to charge their EV on a half way across country trip to their destination. I think we are kidding ourselves for long cross country trips.
    Steve & Tami Cass - Escapee's, FMCA Members, Texas Fulltimers Since July 2020
    2019 Solitude 3350RL S-Class, 2018 Ram 3500 DRW, Laramie Longhorn, B&W Companion, Texas Class A Non-CDL Drivers License
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  5. #15
    Site Sponsor SolarPoweredRV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dryfly View Post
    @SolarPoweredRV

    You seem knowledgeable about EV's, and I have a question. Given today's gasoline prices, comparing an EV that say travels 300 miles on a charge, what would be the fuel cost comparison on a 300 mile trip comparing an ICE vehicle using regular gasoline vs. a comparable weight EV? I know electricity prices vary, but just considering an average.
    One of the biggest advantages of EV ownership is the ability to charge at home (usually overnight). Several utility companies offer "Time of Use" pricing and they drop the price of electricity over night (called "Off-Peak" pricing) by ~50%. The average price for electricity is ~$0.13 cents per Kwh, so, if you were able to take advantage of that "Off-Peak" pricing and you had a Tesla model 3 with a 330 mile range and a 74kw battery pack it would cost you $4.80 to take that 300 mile trip, if you had to pay the full $0.13 cents your cost would be less than $10.00.

    In a gas car that got 25 miles to the gallon you would use 12 gallons of gas. If gas were $4.00 per gallon that trip would cost you $48.

    Now if you were to take a trip of 800 miles the math gets a bit trickier because you will need to stop along the way and charge up at a DC Fast Charger. DC Fast chargers charge ~ 40 to 50 cents per Kwh added to the vehicle. Consequently, you get ~300 miles from your cheap "at home" electricity and you will need to stop a couple of times and pay to DC Fast charge to reach your destination. Even paying more for DC Fast charging your trip still costs less than using the Gas car.

    A couple of things you need to know about taking long trips in an EV... You will want to stop at a DC Fast Charger when your battery drops to between 10% and 20% State of Charge (SOC) and you only fill up to around 80% SOC before leaving. This is because the battery will charge fastest between 10% and 80% SOC, once the battery reaches ~80% SOC the charging rate slows down dramatically and it becomes a waste of time to wait around while charging higher than 80%. Additionally, if you are planning a long trip that requires an overnight stay at a hotel, pick a hotel with EV charging, (called "Destination Chargers") you can plug your car on overnight and start the next day with a 100% battery (often there is no additional charge to plug in your EV at the hotel).

    So, if your EV has enough range to make the entire 300 mile trip, you can make the trip on the cheap electricity you get from home, however, if your EV doesn't have 330 miles of range, then you might need to stop at a DC Fast Charger for a quick 10 minute charge along the way to give yourself a small buffer to ensure you can reach your destination with some charge left in the battery.
    David and Peggy
    2019 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.7L Diesel, Dually, Long Bed
    Running with 20k Reese Goosebox (Love It) and Ford Factory "Puck" system.
    Stopping with 8,000 lb Disc Brakes and Titan Hydraulic over Electric Brakes system.
    Powering all this fun with 1200 Watts of Solar, two Tesla, Model S, battery modules, 24 volt Victron Inverter.
    2018 Solitude 310 GK

  6. #16
    Site Sponsor NB Canada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolarPoweredRV View Post
    One of the biggest advantages of EV ownership is the ability to charge at home (usually overnight). Several utility companies offer "Time of Use" pricing and they drop the price of electricity over night (called "Off-Peak" pricing) by ~50%. The average price for electricity is ~$0.13 cents per Kwh, so, if you were able to take advantage of that "Off-Peak" pricing and you had a Tesla model 3 with a 330 mile range and a 74kw battery pack it would cost you $4.80 to take that 300 mile trip, if you had to pay the full $0.13 cents your cost would be less than $10.00.

    In a gas car that got 25 miles to the gallon you would use 12 gallons of gas. If gas were $4.00 per gallon that trip would cost you $48.

    Now if you were to take a trip of 800 miles the math gets a bit trickier because you will need to stop along the way and charge up at a DC Fast Charger. DC Fast chargers charge ~ 40 to 50 cents per Kwh added to the vehicle. Consequently, you get ~300 miles from your cheap "at home" electricity and you will need to stop a couple of times and pay to DC Fast charge to reach your destination. Even paying more for DC Fast charging your trip still costs less than using the Gas car.

    .
    I don’t understand why is it an “advantage” to charge at home?
    I don’t have to do anything to my gas vehicle at home

    Is it your belief that over say a years driving the EV will be less expensive????
    2021 Imagine 2400 BH
    2018 GMC Sierra 4x4 Crew 1840lb payload

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by traveldawg View Post
    I sort of agree with the point NB Canada made about using a 48VDC oil a camper - what's the point?

    12v is fine - has been for years, still is in any automotive product that isn't an EV and see no need for a mass change just because an EV has 48 volt drive motors. I just don't see an up side.

    Got a 48v solar system - just convert it down to 12v and move on. For all I know (and strongly suspect) that's what EVs do to power their computers, lights, accessories, etc. I has to cheaper to use existing 12v motors, lights, etc. than developing a higher voltage version (and making it proprietary to a particular EV).
    The 48V isn’t the motors. Those are hundreds of volts. 48V is for the accessories and control systems. The radio, heat pump, lights, wipers etc.. It has economic and functional advantages. Smaller wire and smaller components are a big deal.
    John & Kathy
    2014 F250 Lariat FX4 6.2L SBCC
    2014 Reflection 303RLS
    SW Indiana

  8. #18
    Long Hauler
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    Quote Originally Posted by NB Canada View Post
    I don’t understand why is it an “advantage” to charge at home?
    I don’t have to do anything to my gas vehicle at home

    Is it your belief that over say a years driving the EV will be less expensive????
    I'm not sure whether you're being obviously obtuse, or just messing with people.

    If you could fill your gas vehicle at home for $2/gallon, or fill it at a station for $4/gallon, which would be your choice? Filling your EV, i.e. recharging means you don't have to refill at a charger, and you don't pay for that privilege.

    I'm not an EV fan necessarily, but charging at home makes sense to me and would be a real plus.
    Howard and Peggy
    2019 Momentum 351M, and 2018 RAM Cummins dually 6-speed.
    His: 1999 Honda Interceptor
    Hers: 2013 Spyder ST-S

  9. #19
    Site Sponsor NB Canada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopy Frood View Post
    I'm not sure whether you're being obviously obtuse, or just messing with people.

    If you could fill your gas vehicle at home for $2/gallon, or fill it at a station for $4/gallon, which would be your choice? Filling your EV, i.e. recharging means you don't have to refill at a charger, and you don't pay for that privilege.

    I'm not an EV fan necessarily, but charging at home makes sense to me and would be a real plus.
    But to say it is an advantage to EV ownership???
    Doesn’t make sense
    2021 Imagine 2400 BH
    2018 GMC Sierra 4x4 Crew 1840lb payload

  10. #20
    Long Hauler
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    Quote Originally Posted by NB Canada View Post
    But to say it is an advantage to EV ownership???
    Doesn’t make sense
    Seriously? If I owned an EV for everyday use, I'd never have to visit a fuel station because I don't drive more than 30-50 miles, and usually much less, in a day. Unless you're strictly referring to RV-type usage. Then I agree it is marginally useful.
    Howard and Peggy
    2019 Momentum 351M, and 2018 RAM Cummins dually 6-speed.
    His: 1999 Honda Interceptor
    Hers: 2013 Spyder ST-S

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