Is a 48 Volt RV In Your Future?

[SolarPoweredRV]

Last week (3/1/2023), Tesla announced that they are changing their 12 volt architecture to a 48 volt architecture in every new model they produce, beginning with the CyberTruck.

There are many advantages to having a 48 volt architecture instead of 12 volts. Higher voltage allows wires to be much, much, smaller and there is less (energy) loss from the wiring between battery and device. Additionally, 48 volt devices are more efficient and can run much cooler than their 12v counterparts. All this adds up to the vehicle being lighter weight with huge cost savings because the size if the wires inside the vehicle are much smaller (there is almost a mile of wires inside a modern vehicle).

NOTE: the switch to 48 volts applies to all the electronics inside the vehicle, i.e.: power windows, door locks, dome lights, brake lights, entertainment centers, etc. The EV power train (battery and traction motors) remains at 400 volts (or higher).

Many auto industry analysts expect the industry to migrate to 48 volts fairly quick due to the many advantages of the higher voltage. This shift will also involve auto industry parts suppliers (known as "Tier 1, Tier 2...").

This change in voltage is not unprecedented, the auto industry switched from 6 volts to 12 volts in the 1960s. Back then, the primary reason was because starter motors could be smaller, more powerful, and cheaper.

All the advantages of weight savings, cooler operating temperatures and less line loss exist for RV manufactures just like they do for the Auto manufacturers.

My question is: How soon do you expect to see RV manufacturers switch over to 48 volt architecture? Keep in mind that the trucks that pull, and the chassis our RVs are built on, will be powered by 48 volts.

[SolarPoweredRV]

Last week (3/1/2023), Tesla announced that they are changing their 12 volt architecture to a 48 volt architecture in every new model they produce, beginning with the CyberTruck.

There are many advantages to having a 48 volt architecture instead of 12 volts. Higher voltage allows wires to be much, much, smaller and there is less (energy) loss from the wiring between battery and device. Additionally, 48 volt devices are more efficient and can run much cooler than their 12v counterparts. All this adds up to the vehicle being lighter weight with huge cost savings because the size if the wires inside the vehicle are much smaller (there is almost a mile of wires inside a modern vehicle).

NOTE: the switch to 48 volts applies to all the electronics inside the vehicle, i.e.: power windows, door locks, dome lights, brake lights, entertainment centers, etc. The EV power train (battery and traction motors) remains at 400 volts (or higher).

Many auto industry analysts expect the industry to migrate to 48 volts fairly quick due to the many advantages of the higher voltage. This shift will also involve auto industry parts suppliers (known as "Tier 1, Tier 2...").

This change in voltage is not unprecedented, the auto industry switched from 6 volts to 12 volts in the 1960s. Back then, the primary reason was because starter motors could be smaller, more powerful, and cheaper.

All the advantages of weight savings, cooler operating temperatures and less line loss exist for RV manufactures just like they do for the Auto manufacturers.

My question is: How soon do you expect to see RV manufacturers switch over to 48 volt architecture? Keep in mind that the trucks that pull, and the chassis our RVs are built on, will be powered by 48 volts.

If I am going to ask a question, I should be willing to answer the question...

I think there is a lot of pressure on the RV industry to upgrade the low voltage electrical system inside our RVs. Specifically, Solar systems are now becoming standard on many models and there is a massive switch to DC powered refrigeration. Add to this the fact that the Tow Vehicles and Chassis will be operating on 48 volts. I think the switch over to 48 volts will mirror the Auto Industry's switch over. The same advantages of less weight, higher power. and cooler operation exists for RV manufacturers as it does for Auto OEMs.

I think 48 volts will first appear in the higher end Class A Rvs and will propagate through Class "A"s before migrating into the higher end towables, beginning with 5th Wheels. Time Line: I think within 5 years the high end class "A"s will start the switch over and the entire industry switches over inside of ten years. The main reason I think this is because of the proliferation of EVs coming to market over the next decade. It will be very easy for the Auto Industry to switch to a 48v architecture as they are designing their new EVs, so, I think the RV industry will need follow the Auto Industry, especially for Towables.

[Dale B]

I wonder when those who are mandating EV's & those who think we should are going understand it isn't going to happen as they would like.

The narrative of emission free vehicle's is deceptive. EV's are batteries storing power that is generated by fossil fuel in many cases, then hydro & on & on.

We do not generate enough power or have the ability to distribute it. That's one problem.

Next is the amount minerals required to facilitate their believed transition, just basic copper. EV's need approx. 2.5 times the minerals required to build compared to ICE vehicle's. It takes approx. 16 years to get development approval & permit's to start a new mine. Take a guess how many mines are in the works & the capital allocated to meet the increased demand for mining.

Then comes the shortage of minerals to meet mandates, shortage of minerals for increased power generation & distribution. Hi demand for something in short supply equals higher prices.

Off topic a tad I know LOL!

It's not I don't believe there is an application for EV's in some situations. The markets in their own way will sort it out. Because of unrealistic mandates it is going to be a problem & in turn affect the time frame of your post.

[LMagelitz]

A switch to 48V for RVs would really facilitate the addition of inverters to run an a/c unit! It would also be nice if there was a standard rack for server rack batts on board. I’m not sure I’m a fan of DC refrigeration. Seems like just a specialized appliance for an RV, and therefore a captive set of buyers. Just stay with the residential fridges…

[SolarPoweredRV]

I wonder when those who are mandating EV's & those who think we should are going understand it isn't going to happen as they would like.

The narrative of emission free vehicle's is deceptive. EV's are batteries storing power that is generated by fossil fuel in many cases, then hydro & on & on.

We do not generate enough power or have the ability to distribute it. That's one problem.

Next is the amount minerals required to facilitate their believed transition, just basic copper. EV's need approx. 2.5 times the minerals required to build compared to ICE vehicle's. It takes approx. 16 years to get development approval & permit's to start a new mine. Take a guess how many mines are in the works & the capital allocated to meet the increased demand for mining.

Then comes the shortage of minerals to meet mandates, shortage of minerals for increased power generation & distribution. Hi demand for something in short supply equals higher prices.

Off topic a tad I know LOL!

It's not I don't believe there is an application for EV's in some situations. The markets in their own way will sort it out. Because of unrealistic mandates it is going to be a problem & in turn affect the time frame of your post.

I think people will be surprised at how fast EVs will take over the market. Do you realize that EVs were 10% of the market last year? When you look at technology adoption rates for things like Smart Phones and big screen LED Televisions, once a new technology hits 10% market share the adoption rate accelerates exponentially.

There have been many studies that have shown that EVs are cleaner than Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles even if the electricity used is generated using 100% Coal. In the US renewables currently generate more electricity (21.5%) than Coal (19.5%) and 80% of all new generating capacity added to the grid annually is renewable. Consequently, EVs are getting cleaner and cleaner every year.

Switching to 100% Electric Vehicles will not place an overdue burden on our Electric Grid. Because, even if EV sales reached 100% tomorrow, it would still take 20 years to replace all the cars on the road. Studies have shown that a switch to EVs will require the addition of about 2% more electricity from the grid annually, a rate that has historically been added to the grid.

If you take a look at Tesla's Investor Day presentation, in the first few minutes, you will see that the Minerals are available and the mining can be easily ramped up to meet the requirements for the switch to EV transportation. Additionally, companies (Tesla) are switching to technologies that will require less mining for minerals. For example: Tesla announced that their new Electric Motors will not use any "Rare Earth" Minerals in the magnets and they anticipate that a majority of their vehicles will be powered by Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) batteries which will reduce the need for new Nickel and Cobalt mines to be commissioned.

Tesla is also addressing the copper shortage by switching to the 48 volt architecture, because, both the amount of wires (reduced from ~ 1 mile) and the diameter of the wires will be reduced with the switch to 48v architecture. If other Auto Manufacturers make the switch to 48v architecture the amount of Copper saved annually will be amazing!

For those interested, I have posted the link to Tesla's Investor day below, watching the first few minutes will certainly give you new perspective on where the world stands when it comes to being able to switch to Electric Transportation and if it is even possible.

Tesla Investor Day -- March 1, 2023

[jkwilson]

At least 15 years ago, it was assumed in the trade that all vehicles would switch to a higher voltage. It never happened, or at least not yet.

One reason is electrical safety. In the most conservative guidance, 30VDC is considered a hazard. In more commonly used guidance, 50VDC is considered a hazard, requiring guards and protective methods to prevent accidental contact. A 48V system will operate at around 58V when the charger/alternator is charging, and 50.6V will be the normal resting voltage if lead-acid batteries are in the mix.

Every component will require not just an electrical change to operate at a different voltage, but a fundamental redesign to comply with safety requirements.

It won’t happen quickly.

[NB Canada]

I personally don’t give a rats *** about EVs. I don’t know why anyone does. Why people get so passionate about something is odd
They are not any greener than anything else period. Unless they find a way to make them without plastic they are no greener imo. At least not in a measurement that matters
Bottom line is they are well overpriced and lack versatility and there isn’t a vast infrastructure to care for them
The cheapest new EV is 45k. I can get the same gas version for 17k
Plus the nearest dealer to me that carries EVs is farther than the cars range. It would take me 2 days to get home if I wanted one
These are the facts and something very drastic has to happen to change it

As far as 48volts? What is the point in the general scheme of things?
I can’t see it happening

[SolarPoweredRV]

At least 15 years ago, it was assumed in the trade that all vehicles would switch to a higher voltage. It never happened, or at least not yet.

One reason is electrical safety. In the most conservative guidance, 30VDC is considered a hazard. In more commonly used guidance, 50VDC is considered a hazard, requiring guards and protective methods to prevent accidental contact. A 48V system will operate at around 58V when the charger/alternator is charging, and 50.6V will be the normal resting voltage if lead-acid batteries are in the mix.

Every component will require not just an electrical change to operate at a different voltage, but a fundamental redesign to comply with safety requirements.

It won’t happen quickly.

I think the switch to 48 volt architecture will also facilitate a switch over to Lithium Ion or Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries which would not require the higher charging voltages you mentioned.

I think that any "Clean Sheet" EV design will be designed with a 48 volt architecture.

Eventually, 48v batteries will be as common place as today's 12v batteries, which will make the RV transition even easier.

I believe the fact that since this has been studied and anticipated by the industry for years, the fact that one company is now making the switch will make other companies switch over as well, especially in their new EVs.

On the issue of electrical safety, I believe that with the new power electronics and by switching to Lithium batteries, the voltage can be controlled to stay inside the "safe zone".

[traveldawg]

I sort of agree with the point NB Canada made about using a 48VDC oil a camper - what's the point?

12v is fine - has been for years, still is in any automotive product that isn't an EV and see no need for a mass change just because an EV has 48 volt drive motors. I just don't see an up side.

Got a 48v solar system - just convert it down to 12v and move on. For all I know (and strongly suspect) that's what EVs do to power their computers, lights, accessories, etc. I has to cheaper to use existing 12v motors, lights, etc. than developing a higher voltage version (and making it proprietary to a particular EV).

[dryfly]

@SolarPoweredRV

You seem knowledgeable about EV's, and I have a question. Given today's gasoline prices, comparing an EV that say travels 300 miles on a charge, what would be the fuel cost comparison on a 300 mile trip comparing an ICE vehicle using regular gasoline vs. a comparable weight EV? I know electricity prices vary, but just considering an average.