Is a 48 Volt RV In Your Future?

[Hoopy Frood]

Really, who cares? This may happen and it may not. Doesn't make a lot of sense to argue back and forth about something that may happen. In 10 years time, they may see 48 V as a dead end, and be looking at something else entirely. No body knows, and most simply don't care about the esoteric minutia.

[Harvestmoon]

I am not a huge fan of Tesla vehicles, but give credit to Musk for not being afraid to throw out convention and carve his own path. Light airplanes went to 24V electrical systems in the 80's because of the significant engineering advantages, particularly since weight is even more critical in aircraft design. And that was in the age of all analog component systems that yes required components to be built in two versions, one for the legacy 12V systems and another for the new 24V systems. With the advent of modern power electronics, many components are now designed to be universal for 12 through 24V. The only downside of 24V is that the batteries are more expensive (almost twice as much in fact). However, that is for the light aircraft market which is a tiny fraction of the automotive market, so I would expect being produced in volumes would keep the cost much more in line. Skipping over 24V to 48V for the automotive industry probably makes sense at this point, although like any change will not be without growing pains. IMO the change in towed RVs would be simple because you can just put a DC-DC converter at the TV connection and run any RV voltage from any TV voltage. I already have a DC-DC converter at my TV connection (albeit 12V-12V) to allow for the different chemistry of the batteries (LFP vs. FLA). LED running/brake lights could be made for universal voltage. Now imagine running a 3000W inverter on #6 wire.

Since I'm in this far, I'll wade into the EV tangent as well. Like anything else, they won't be everything to everyone. My daily driver is a Honda Clarity PHEV, which I paid just over $30k all in and took a $7500 tax credit (i.e., got to keep a little more of my own money). So I paid net $23k for a top of the line, no compromises full size Honda sedan (it's similar to an Accord sedan), and it costs me 3 cents a mile to drive electric within its 45 mile all electric range. I drive 30 miles each way to work every day (yes I charge up at work), and it costs me about $2 of electricity per day instead of $6-8 of gas. So I save $1000-$1500 a year just on commuting cost alone. I just smile driving past people waiting in line to pay $5 per gallon for gas. I drive home, plug in the cord, and wake up to a fully charged car ready to go. On days I have to go further, the gas engine comes on and I get 40mpg. It's a great bridge technology.

All electric EVs like the Bolt yes were initially priced for early adopters. Would I pay $45k for a shoebox? No way. But prices are coming down and that same Bolt is now $28k. Would I pay $28k for a shoebox that cost 3 cents a mile to drive and requires almost no maintenance? Well, maybe. That's getting in the ballpark. Would I buy an electric truck as a TV? No way. The energy demand is just to high for the current battery technology and charging infrastructure. My company is starting to buy Ford Lightening trucks for fleet vehicles. Is it a good fleet truck, driving 50-100 miles a day locally and returning to the garage every night to charge up? You betcha. And frankly I don't give a crap about the environment. (Well, I sort of do but for sake of argument...) I live in the Midwest where we are proud to burn lots and lots of American coal to make our electricity. Would you rather run your car on American coal or imported oil?

[SolarPoweredRV]

I am not a huge fan of Tesla vehicles, but give credit to Musk for not being afraid to throw out convention and carve his own path. Light airplanes went to 24V electrical systems in the 80's because of the significant engineering advantages, particularly since weight is even more critical in aircraft design. And that was in the age of all analog component systems that yes required components to be built in two versions, one for the legacy 12V systems and another for the new 24V systems. With the advent of modern power electronics, many components are now designed to be universal for 12 through 24V. The only downside of 24V is that the batteries are more expensive (almost twice as much in fact). However, that is for the light aircraft market which is a tiny fraction of the automotive market, so I would expect being produced in volumes would keep the cost much more in line. Skipping over 24V to 48V for the automotive industry probably makes sense at this point, although like any change will not be without growing pains. IMO the change in towed RVs would be simple because you can just put a DC-DC converter at the TV connection and run any RV voltage from any TV voltage. I already have a DC-DC converter at my TV connection (albeit 12V-12V) to allow for the different chemistry of the batteries (LFP vs. FLA). LED running/brake lights could be made for universal voltage. Now imagine running a 3000W inverter on #6 wire.

Since I'm in this far, I'll wade into the EV tangent as well. Like anything else, they won't be everything to everyone. My daily driver is a Honda Clarity PHEV, which I paid just over $30k all in and took a $7500 tax credit (i.e., got to keep a little more of my own money). So I paid net $23k for a top of the line, no compromises full size Honda sedan (it's similar to an Accord sedan), and it costs me 3 cents a mile to drive electric within its 45 mile all electric range. I drive 30 miles each way to work every day (yes I charge up at work), and it costs me about $2 of electricity per day instead of $6-8 of gas. So I save $1000-$1500 a year just on commuting cost alone. I just smile driving past people waiting in line to pay $5 per gallon for gas. I drive home, plug in the cord, and wake up to a fully charged car ready to go. On days I have to go further, the gas engine comes on and I get 40mpg. It's a great bridge technology.

All electric EVs like the Bolt yes were initially priced for early adopters. Would I pay $45k for a shoebox? No way. But prices are coming down and that same Bolt is now $28k. Would I pay $28k for a shoebox that cost 3 cents a mile to drive and requires almost no maintenance? Well, maybe. That's getting in the ballpark. Would I buy an electric truck as a TV? No way. The energy demand is just to high for the current battery technology and charging infrastructure. My company is starting to buy Ford Lightening trucks for fleet vehicles. Is it a good fleet truck, driving 50-100 miles a day locally and returning to the garage every night to charge up? You betcha. And frankly I don't give a crap about the environment. (Well, I sort of do but for sake of argument...) I live in the Midwest where we are proud to burn lots and lots of American coal to make our electricity. Would you rather run your car on American coal or imported oil?

It is good to hear that changing voltages has happened to the aircraft industry as well as the auto industry. This shows that precedent has been set by at least two different industries and that change can happen.

When the auto industry switches to 48v, I believe they will also make the change to Lithium batteries. I know that Tesla has already been using 12v Lithium Ion batteries in their vehicles for about two years now. I don't know whether the auto industry will use Lithium Ion, or Lithium Phosphate (LiFePo4) batteries when they switch to 48v, I suspect that Lithium Iron Phosphate will become the most common battery chemistry used.

Your point about modern Electronics being capable of accepting a wide range of voltages might explain how the RV industry will address a voltage change, at least initially, by installing a DC to DC Converter capable of accepting multiple voltages, while keeping the RV operating at 12 volts.

I do believe that the RV industry might be slow to respond, however, they will have the same cost saving motivation as the auto makers will have because of the reduced Copper requirements. Additionally, with all the electronic systems and Residential Refrigerators being installed in today's RVs, 12 volts is proving to not have enough energy storage capability to keep up with the energy needs placed upon them (I am talking about the standard pair of 12v batteries that come with most coaches today).

I also believe that there is a lot of pressure for the industry to switch to LiFePo4 batteries today and at some point, LiFePo4 batteries will come standard with your new RV. It is already happening with the Class B RVs.

[NB Canada]

I also believe that there is a lot of pressure for the industry to switch to LiFePo4 batteries today and at some point, LiFePo4 batteries will come standard with your new RV. It is already happening with the Class B RVs.

I don’t know why you think this. IMO the vast majority of people who RV don’t care about the batteries


I wouldn’t have one at all of it wasn’t required

[Dale B]

I think people will be surprised at how fast EVs will take over the market. Do you realize that EVs were 10% of the market last year? When you look at technology adoption rates for things like Smart Phones and big screen LED Televisions, once a new technology hits 10% market share the adoption rate accelerates exponentially.

There have been many studies that have shown that EVs are cleaner than Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles even if the electricity used is generated using 100% Coal. In the US renewables currently generate more electricity (21.5%) than Coal (19.5%) and 80% of all new generating capacity added to the grid annually is renewable. Consequently, EVs are getting cleaner and cleaner every year.

Switching to 100% Electric Vehicles will not place an overdue burden on our Electric Grid. Because, even if EV sales reached 100% tomorrow, it would still take 20 years to replace all the cars on the road. Studies have shown that a switch to EVs will require the addition of about 2% more electricity from the grid annually, a rate that has historically been added to the grid.

If you take a look at Tesla's Investor Day presentation, in the first few minutes, you will see that the Minerals are available and the mining can be easily ramped up to meet the requirements for the switch to EV transportation. Additionally, companies (Tesla) are switching to technologies that will require less mining for minerals. For example: Tesla announced that their new Electric Motors will not use any "Rare Earth" Minerals in the magnets and they anticipate that a majority of their vehicles will be powered by Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) batteries which will reduce the need for new Nickel and Cobalt mines to be commissioned.

Tesla is also addressing the copper shortage by switching to the 48 volt architecture, because, both the amount of wires (reduced from ~ 1 mile) and the diameter of the wires will be reduced with the switch to 48v architecture. If other Auto Manufacturers make the switch to 48v architecture the amount of Copper saved annually will be amazing!

For those interested, I have posted the link to Tesla's Investor day below, watching the first few minutes will certainly give you new perspective on where the world stands when it comes to being able to switch to Electric Transportation and if it is even possible.

Tesla Investor Day -- March 1, 2023

Whoops, I take full responsibility for dragging EV's into your thread.

I'm not against technology nor I'm I supporting of environmental assassins which is where the focus should be. In Canada as an example our global impact is something in area of 1.4%. If you convert to 100% EV & the impact to global number is something like .14%

The cost & environmental impact to achieve Canada's mandates is staggering & not achievable, in the end has little to no effect in the global number.

We can spin & twist numbers however we want to fit our own agenda's & narrative. Goals need to be realistic & achievable. Then there is the common sense test & what financial burden is there going to be.

If we truly want to make a difference focus on the real polluters & get the third world affordable power ASAP.

[LMagelitz]

It is good to hear that changing voltages has happened to the aircraft industry as well as the auto industry. This shows that precedent has been set by at least two different industries and that change can happen.

When the auto industry switches to 48v, I believe they will also make the change to Lithium batteries. I know that Tesla has already been using 12v Lithium Ion batteries in their vehicles for about two years now. I don't know whether the auto industry will use Lithium Ion, or Lithium Phosphate (LiFePo4) batteries when they switch to 48v, I suspect that Lithium Iron Phosphate will become the most common battery chemistry used.

Your point about modern Electronics being capable of accepting a wide range of voltages might explain how the RV industry will address a voltage change, at least initially, by installing a DC to DC Converter capable of accepting multiple voltages, while keeping the RV operating at 12 volts.

I do believe that the RV industry might be slow to respond, however, they will have the same cost saving motivation as the auto makers will have because of the reduced Copper requirements. Additionally, with all the electronic systems and Residential Refrigerators being installed in today's RVs, 12 volts is proving to not have enough energy storage capability to keep up with the energy needs placed upon them (I am talking about the standard pair of 12v batteries that come with most coaches today).

I also believe that there is a lot of pressure for the industry to switch to LiFePo4 batteries today and at some point, LiFePo4 batteries will come standard with your new RV. It is already happening with the Class B RVs.

Count heavy equipment in the list also…
Trackhoes, dozers, etc have been 24v for decades now. It’s just a couple of standard 12V batts in series, and I have to say, we NEVER have problems with it. MUCH better than the 12V systems in other equipment.

[SolarPoweredRV]

I don’t know why you think this. IMO the vast majority of people who RV don’t care about the batteries


I wouldn’t have one at all of it wasn’t required

Because the price of Lithium (LiFePo4) batteries has come down and they are superior to Lead Acid batteries in every way: lower weight, higher operating voltage, maintenance free and longer life. Additionally, the RV manufacturers are including options like Electronic Control centers, Inverters for Residential Refrigerators, DC refrigerators, 35,000 BTU + Furnaces that take a lot of power/energy storage to operate, or need to be powered continuously for the coach to function.

I don't know why you think that a vast majority of RVers don't care about batteries. In January 2021, I posted a thread titled "Cheap batteries are coming, cheap Lithium batteries are coming...", this thread has received over 51,400 views, it is also the 37th most read thread on this Forum.

[NB Canada]

.

I don't know why you think that a vast majority of RVers don't care about batteries. In January 2021, I posted a thread titled "Cheap batteries are coming, cheap Lithium batteries are coming...", this thread has received over 51,400 views, it is also the 37th most read thread on this Forum.

I noticed that thread and looked at it (one of the views) and I am not interested so views isn’t a good indicator imo

The type of system you have represents less than 1/2 of 1 percent of people who rv
Especially here in Canada where there isn’t really a good place to off grid camp

Perhaps as the industry “evolves” it will become a necessity but you can bet the price will go up as well
Changing my fla for lithium will do nothing for me other than take a lot of money

[SolarPoweredRV]

I noticed that thread and looked at it (one of the views) and I am not interested so it isn’t a good indicator imo

The type of system you have represents less than 1/2 of 1 percent of people who rv
Especially here in Canada where there isn’t really a good place to off grid camp

Perhaps as the industry “evolves” it will become a necessity but you can bet the price will go up as well
Changing my fla for lithium will do nothing for me other than take a lot of money

I presume that when you say "The type of system you have is less than 1/2 0f 1 percent" is referring to the robust Battery and Solar system I have installed on my RV that allows me to operate every system in my coach without hooking up to Shore Power. I must disagree, looking at the many threads posted to the "Solar Systems and Generators" section of this forum. Many people are interested in installing enough battery capacity to get them through a night or two without being connected to Shore Power and there are many more people interested in building a robust Solar and Battery system that will allow them to camp off grid for days at a time without running a generator.

In actuality, the thread about Cheap Lithium batteries is not about my (Tesla) system, it is about how the prices for Lithium (LiFePo4) batteries have come down to a point where they are now more affordable. As-a-matter-of-fact, Lithium batteries are now competitive with AGM, or even Lead Acid batteries. For a thread that discusses the price competitiveness in detail read: "Lithium Over Lead Acid Batteries":

Lithium-over-Lead-Acid-Batteries

As far as pricing goes, battery prices have actually come down because of the popularity of Lithium batteries. As you can see by reading the above thread.

PS: the latest pricing for a 100ah, 12v Lithium battery has dropped down to about $260 with free shipping. That is actually cheaper than a 100ah, Group 27m, Duracell Ultra AGM at $274.99.

[NB Canada]

I presume that when you say "The type of system you have is less than 1/2 0f 1 percent" is referring to the robust Battery and Solar system I have installed on my RV that allows me to operate every system in my coach without hooking up to Shore Power. I must disagree, looking at the many threads posted to the "Solar Systems and Generators" section of this forum. Many people are interested

There were 575000 units delivered in 2021.
You believe more than 2800 of those are equipped with a system like yours. I am only guessing but if I wanted a system like yours on my trailer next week knowing absolutely nothing about doing it myself would it cost close to 15k or more?

I agree many are interested but it stops when the cost is realized

I am sure there will be a time in the future when it works but it isn’t now. Why it isn’t now I don’t know
Solar has been around for decades but yet it is still widely unused. There should be solar on every household roof in North America but there isn’t
I wonder why?
I get that you are passionate about this stuff but unfortunately the majority want to plug in to a campground pedestal and crack a beer