Industry Looking for Lithium Battery Replacement

**Steven@147** · 03-27-2024, 09:50 AM

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...hium-batteries

I figured I would start a new thread instead of attaching or high-jacking someone else's thread. I know a lot of you might say, Oh No, another thread on batteries, lets not do that. But I am still learning about all this new fangled technology !!

I know very little about Lithium-ion batteries that you all have been discussing, but I ran across this article off the BBC News. I just thought it was interesting. Industry is always looking for a better mouse trap. Battery technology and the fact that EVs are really taking off, not to mention all the other industries that use battery technology, I'm just trying to learn and stay in touch with new things. Solar as well.

We'll probably replace our 5 year old LA battery with a Lithium-ion, but I have to learn a lot more about them, and all the other things you guys and gals install with them.

**xrated** · 03-27-2024, 11:22 AM

One thing to remember, there is a huge difference between Lithium-Ion batteries and the type that we use in our RVs.....the Lithium-Iron-Phosphate batteries. The chemistries are MUCH safer with the LiFePO or LFP, than they are with Lithium-Ion or Li-ion.

**Tom Traveler** · 03-27-2024, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Steven@147

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...hium-batteries

I figured I would start a new thread instead of attaching or high-jacking someone else's thread. I know a lot of you might say, Oh No, another thread on batteries, lets not do that. But I am still learning about all this new fangled technology !!

I know very little about Lithium-ion batteries that you all have been discussing, but I ran across this article off the BBC News. I just thought it was interesting. Industry is always looking for a better mouse trap. Battery technology and the fact that EVs are really taking off, not to mention all the other industries that use battery technology, I'm just trying to learn and stay in touch with new things. Solar as well.

We'll probably replace our 5 year old LA battery with a Lithium-ion, but I have to learn a lot more about them, and all the other things you guys and gals install with them.

It took me awhile to understand the difference, but you will be replacing your LA battery with LiFePO4, not Lithium-ion. They are different batteries using different chemistry. LiFePO4 are inherently safer and, reportedly, won’t start on fire. Not the case with Lithium-ion. A speedster missed a curve locally and piled his Tesla into a tree. Luckily it was in a rural area outside of the city. The firefighters stood upwind and let it burn as a lithium-ion fire is very difficult to put out and the water just tends to spread the toxic material and fumes. They were left with a hazardous waste cleanup site.

I don’t know why cars don’t use LiFePO4 chemistry. Maybe because of lower energy density? That would be ah/size or ah/weight. Can someone weigh in with additional info?

**sande005** · 03-27-2024, 11:33 AM

LiFePO batteries were invented at MIT, and first manufactured here in the States (Google "A123 Batteries"). That company was geared up for the EV market, but the rest of the economy wasn't quite there yet. China ended up with the manufacturing, and the rest is history. Other chemistries have a higher default voltage, meaning more power per pound. So they can deliver more, faster, which many want for their EV's. Or even in some cases for use as starting batteries (hence why many LiFe's aren't sold as cranking batteries). RV, Trolling motors, even golf carts are the areas where peak power isn't a primary factor....

**Butcher** · 03-28-2024, 08:29 AM

A LifePo4 battery is a type of Lithium-ion battery. Just saying.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu...sphate_battery

**Steven@147** · 03-28-2024, 09:02 AM

See I've already made a faux pas by lumping Lithium-ion together with Lithium-ion phosphate type batteries in relation to talking about RVs.

I'm getting to the age where I need to forget something in order to remember something new! (saying loosely borrowed from the movie Lone Star)

**xrated** · 03-28-2024, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Steven@147

See I've already made a faux pas by lumping Lithium-ion together with Lithium-ion phosphate type batteries in relation to talking about RVs.

I'm getting to the age where I need to forget something in order to remember something new! (saying loosely borrowed from the movie Lone Star)

LOL....it's OK. Prior to me wanting to either buy or build a LiFePO battery, I knew absolutely ZERO about them. When I started looking at the cost for a LFP battery that was in the 300AH or so range, I decided to see what it would take for me to purchase cells, a BMS, and whatever else was required and build one myself. I went down the "rabbit hole" fairly deep and finally decided to build one ....a DIY project. That was late 2021 and back then the pricing was significant between an already built battery from a manufacturer vs. building one yourself. I'm 100% happy with the way mine turned out, but fast forward to the current prices of today and the somewhat steady drop in pricing on the already built.......and that comparison on pricing is much closer now. I'm still happy that I did it though and I know exactly what I have, and the build quality that is there.

**Jomani** · 03-28-2024, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Steven@147

See I've already made a faux pas by lumping Lithium-ion together with Lithium-ion phosphate type batteries in relation to talking about RVs.

I'm getting to the age where I need to forget something in order to remember something new! (saying loosely borrowed from the movie Lone Star)

That is actually a pretty common thing. As someone else pointed out, LiFePo4 is a specific type of lithium-ion. LiFePo4 is actually describing the compound that makes up the cathode (positive electrodes) used in the battery’s construction.

I think a lot of lithium-ion battery safety discussions fail to include the all important Battery Management System (BMS). LI batteries, by their very nature, can charge and discharge very quickly, hence the fire risk from thermal runaway. While LiFePo4 technology is more stable than other types of LI batteries, it is the BMS that ultimately controls the output (and input for that matter).

I actually dissected my 6 month old 200ah LiFePo4 battery just to get a better understanding of how the BMS functions. I came away from that experiment with a much better understanding of the importance of a quality BMS. It also helped me understand why LiFePo4 technology works so well in an RV.

**Butcher** · 03-28-2024, 10:11 AM

I went down the same rabbit hole, just deeper. I installed two 304ah batteries in 2022 and I am in the process of installing two more. That should give me at least 1200ah.

Last week, I replumbed the mess behind the Nautilus panel. Moved a lot of the wiring and found just enough room to install the other two. One advantage of a DIY approach, you can tetras these batteries to any shape you need to fill the void.

The prices seemed to be a bit lower than a couple years ago as mentioned.

**xrated** · 03-28-2024, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Butcher

I went down the same rabbit hole, just deeper. I installed two 304ah batteries in 2022 and I am in the process of installing two more. That should give me at least 1200ah.

Last week, I replumbed the mess behind the Nautilus panel. Moved a lot of the wiring and found just enough room to install the other two. One advantage of a DIY approach, you can tetras these batteries to any shape you need to fill the void.

The prices seemed to be a bit lower than a couple years ago as mentioned.

Wow, that will be a LOT of battery capacity.....good on you. We almost never boondock, but I still wanted to do LFP because my two 6V Trojan T105s were getting to the point that they had lost quite a bit of their capacity, and the fact that after I built the battery, I was going to have JC Refrigeration do the twin compressor mod on my Norcold 2118. We had some travel days in the 10 to 11 hour range when we went out west back in 2021 and I knew that a 302AH build would be more than enough battery for two days of travel back to back if we ever encountered a stop that didn't have electrical hookup and we couldn't really use the onboard generator.