Winnebago is purchasing Newmar Corporation

[gordofuchs]

I'm always somewhat amused by threads (the Newmar owners forum on IRV2 glowed red for days after the announcement) that express concern about 'quality' changes when one company buys another. Folks, IMO any 'quality' that results in anything built in Indiana is by chance and not by design. Grand Design, Newmar and others brag about their mostly Amish workforce and suggest they bring some special skill and 'craftsmanship' to the table. I would agree that there is a lot of building skill among the Amish but they are not allowed to use that properly by the RV industry. Maybe in the support operations like cabinet building but once a chassis hits the floor, the emphasis is on speed and not quality.

I recently read a good article about the large number of Amish employed by the RV industry in Indiana. It has become increasingly difficult for many of them to prosper farming so they have flocked to the RV factories. They make better money there. However, when interviewed by the writer, the Amish workers talk mostly about the stress caused by the speed they are required to work. One from Newmar spoke of starting at 5:00 AM with the knowledge that they could leave when they met their 'quota' of 8 coaches. So, if they get done early, they get to leave early. That scheme is not designed to ensure build quality. It's a shame that the industry operates this way and it is the reason we get RV's that are often built like crap. Until the industry has some incentive to change, this will continue.

I couldn't agree more, which is a reason why I don't see us doing any kind of an upgrade. We will continue to upgrade what we have and repair whatever breaks. At least we know what we have. And the more work you do on the trailers, the faster you can diagnose/fix things.

[ScopesNC]

We will continue to upgrade what we have and repair whatever breaks. At least we know what we have. And the more work you do on the trailers, the faster you can diagnose/fix things.

gordofuchs

That is a great attitude and approach .

[Steven@147]

snip I would agree that there is a lot of building skill among the Amish but they are not allowed to use that properly by the RV industry. Maybe in the support operations like cabinet building but once a chassis hits the floor, the emphasis is on speed and not quality.

I recently read a good article about the large number of Amish employed by the RV industry in Indiana. It has become increasingly difficult for many of them to prosper farming so they have flocked to the RV factories. They make better money there. However, when interviewed by the writer, the Amish workers talk mostly about the stress caused by the speed they are required to work. One from Newmar spoke of starting at 5:00 AM with the knowledge that they could leave when they met their 'quota' of 8 coaches. So, if they get done early, they get to leave early. That scheme is not designed to ensure build quality. It's a shame that the industry operates this way and it is the reason we get RV's that are often built like crap. Until the industry has some incentive to change, this will continue.

I grew up close to that area in Indiana and we visited it often. The wife was talking with one of our friends that lives up there and has a business not related to the RV industry. He said the RV factory workers are making approx $80K / year but they have NO benefits. The workers have to pay for their own health insurance, the RV companies do not provide any health insurance. Our friend said he can not afford to compete with the RV factory's pay scale, so he is having a hard time finding and keeping employees.
What ever it is, I would agree with you the incentive is in the wrong place.

[Brewhedd]

Not necessarily true. Since Winnebago purchased GD, I have not seen a drop in GD's quality or customer service. In any case it is just a sign f the times.

Just wondering how you monitor their "quality". I have a list of defects that is way too long. Judging from my experience, their "quality" isn't any different than a comparably priced upper tier unit from Keystone or Jayco. In fact it may be worse, so if the bean counters start with their magic they may well run GD right into the **itter.

I agree it a sign of the times. I wonder how these mergers or buyouts will be viewed when the "boomers" stop buying and want to sell their RV's. I think I see markedly declining sales in the future.

[GENESIS]

Boy-oh-boy....this post will surely be

As has been mentioned, just about every RV manufacturer (except for custom builders) has a piecemeal pay structure for production employees. In theory, this is suppose to be a carrot incentive for folks to actively work and not good off. However, as production cycle times go down (management pats themselves on the back thinking they're awesome), quality starts lagging since workers start relying on folks (mostly QC inspectors) down stream to catch the defects. Again, in theory, this should work. The problem is that production management tends to ramp up the heat in order to satisfy their bosses. This results in MORE product, as well as defects, flowing downstream to inspect resulting in flooding the final production station. And, as that last station becomes constipated, production management starts putting pressure on the workers to clear the jam which means something has to give. As many of you have seen, the last station of build has folks crawling all over a unit to identify and repair issues. Those colored tape identifiers sometimes make a unit look like a Christmas tree.

From there the unit may go thru another inspection process or it may go to the dealer. This, in effect, makes the dealer an extension of the manufacturers inspection process. I cannot be certain, but I highly doubt the dealer is compensated by the manufacturer to inspect the unit. Then the unit goes to PDI (hopefully once) where YOU essentially become the manufacturers final inspector. And I'm sure the manufacturer compensates you for your time, yes? WHAT!! They don't???

This outdated process has been proven time & time again to be untenable over the long haul. The U.S. car companies learned it the hard way. It defies logic that a mass production company uses this broken, outdated and terrible process when it's relatively easy to clone a best practices production process. The real problem is those folks at the top of the food chain, for the most part, have never worked in the auto industry or the aircraft industry or any other industry that designs in, and builds in, "quality". And you know what the really sad part is? 99.8% of factory workers wanna build it right. They pride themselves on doing it right the first time. But the nature of the process beats them into submission. So they do the best they can and probably go home frustrated as all get-out because they didn't have enough time to do it right. That's on management's head.

When my former employer went through this transition 25 years ago, it was a real struggle. Production folks (who didn't trust management) were very leery of these new concepts they were being asked to embrace because they had had it beat into their head that management or Engineering knew what was best so just STHU and build the dam thing to the blueprint. The hard part was not implementing the process - it was gaining the production folks' trust. Once that happened, the rest was a cake walk. It's a very powerful example of trust when a worker bee knows that they not only can, but have the responsibility of shutting the production line down if they see a real issue. Anyhow, for us, it resulted in having less QC inspectors (overhead $$) and quality going through the roof. It's sad and a shame to see the RV industry "not get it".

Tom

[Brewhedd]

Boy-oh-boy....this post will surely be

It may be but you are 100% correct. I've seen time and time again management making decisions that instead of saving them money actually costs them money in the long run. It sure made them look/ feel good in the moment though. Another problem is lower levels of management often are not respected and turned into "yes men" because of the massive egos of upper management.

[Springerdad]

It isn't just the RV industry. Our new 70K (higher quality) boat came with a leaking fresh water tank, an important hatch gutter drain that doesn't work, and a ground wire that wasn't connected to the battery. (that one is on the dealer)
When the boat goes in for it's 20 hour service they will be taken care of. But here's the beauty of it: they are going to come to me, 25 miles away, pick up the boat and service it, and deliver it back to me at no charge. I can't imagine any RV dealer picking up your camper, performing warranty work, and delivering it back to you. Just my .02

[mcason]

Boy-oh-boy....this post will surely be


Tom

Well said. I am new to Grand Design but not to RV's. I am surprised by how many people believe that the PDI inspection used by Grand Design creates a better product. Just look at what is still sent to the customers and you can see the process did not fix the real problem. Working in the automotive industry we learned you cannot inspect for quality. You need to build for quality.

I do not believe Grand design has any better quality than any other manufacturer. The sooner the customer realizes this the sooner we can demand changes. Until we demand better, things will not change.

I will step off my soap box.

[Blu.Rays]

The RV industry is begging for government regulation because of their dangerous poor quality. Certainly that will drive up the price and force many out of business as well as place the cost so high, people wont be able to afford them. The industry is cutting their own throat.