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  1. #1
    Seasoned Camper mbergthold's Avatar
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    Redesign Imagine 2500RL dump system?

    Has anyone replaced the OEM dump system on an Imagine, or on any Grand Design unit?
    Has anyone installed electric heater elements on their holding tanks?
    I've requested a schematic of the 2500's drain/holding/dump system from GD
    I'm old school, prefer dump sequence (and tank location) to be gray first then black and finally the hose connection.
    I haven't dropped the hard belly yet, but can see "alot" of excess gray foam. I hate surprises, and after reading a few plumbing posts, I'd rather find & correct issues at home than on the road.
    I'm not a fan of the small drain pipes, so I'll find a way to install adequately sized drain pipes on both gray tanks.
    Altho we haven't winter camped for years, I plan to install electric tank heaters. As a former Weekend Warrior 5th wheel owner who lived in it during 2 winters using electric tank heaters, I have no interest in using the Imagine's FAH to heat the tanks, even if the factory ducting is in place and functional.
    I like most features of our 2500, but this will be the first travel trailer that I've modified before using it.
    Mark and Judy
    USN/USAF family (parents and kids)
    2021 F350 Lariat Crew 4x4 SRW 7.3 Godzilla
    2021 Imagine 2500RL w/Hensley Arrow hitch

  2. #2
    Site Team Second Chance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbergthold View Post
    Has anyone replaced the OEM dump system on an Imagine, or on any Grand Design unit?
    Has anyone installed electric heater elements on their holding tanks?
    I've requested a schematic of the 2500's drain/holding/dump system from GD
    I'm old school, prefer dump sequence (and tank location) to be gray first then black and finally the hose connection.
    I haven't dropped the hard belly yet, but can see "alot" of excess gray foam. I hate surprises, and after reading a few plumbing posts, I'd rather find & correct issues at home than on the road.
    I'm not a fan of the small drain pipes, so I'll find a way to install adequately sized drain pipes on both gray tanks.
    Altho we haven't winter camped for years, I plan to install electric tank heaters. As a former Weekend Warrior 5th wheel owner who lived in it during 2 winters using electric tank heaters, I have no interest in using the Imagine's FAH to heat the tanks, even if the factory ducting is in place and functional.
    I like most features of our 2500, but this will be the first travel trailer that I've modified before using it.
    If I'm reading correctly, you should always dump black first, then gray.

    Rob
    U.S. Army Retired
    2012 F350 DRW CC LB Lariat PS 6.7
    2020 Solitude 310GK-R, MORryde IS, disc brakes,
    Sailun LRG tires, solar, DP windows, W/D
    (Previously in a Reflection 337RLS)
    Full time since 08/2015

  3. #3
    Seasoned Camper mbergthold's Avatar
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    That's how RVs used to be set up - the gray would flush remaining black out. To do that required flow and pressure, so the ABS was all the same size. On our 2500RL, only the short main dump from the black tank is large. Tank locations used to be fairly standardized - from front to rear, fresh/black/gray, or fresh/gray/black, for weight distribution. Then somebody (who IMO) had little to no experience with RVs decided to change the design, and added a cleaning jet in the black tank. I've been adding those for years, difference is it needs to oscillate, not just shoot a jet of water out. Only one RV manufacturer that I know of puts sprayers in both black and gray tanks, as I do. Soap scum, grease, and hair get on the sensors - cleaning jets can help reduce false readings, if they're installed in the correct spots.
    Mark and Judy
    USN/USAF family (parents and kids)
    2021 F350 Lariat Crew 4x4 SRW 7.3 Godzilla
    2021 Imagine 2500RL w/Hensley Arrow hitch

  4. #4
    Site Team Second Chance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbergthold View Post
    That's how RVs used to be set up - the gray would flush remaining black out. To do that required flow and pressure, so the ABS was all the same size. On our 2500RL, only the short main dump from the black tank is large. Tank locations used to be fairly standardized - from front to rear, fresh/black/gray, or fresh/gray/black, for weight distribution. Then somebody (who IMO) had little to no experience with RVs decided to change the design, and added a cleaning jet in the black tank. I've been adding those for years, difference is it needs to oscillate, not just shoot a jet of water out. Only one RV manufacturer that I know of puts sprayers in both black and gray tanks, as I do. Soap scum, grease, and hair get on the sensors - cleaning jets can help reduce false readings, if they're installed in the correct spots.
    All I can tell you is that I have drained the black tanks first on both of my GD fifth wheels (using the flush system) and then the gray tanks. Even when I put 15 gallons of clean water in the black tank and drain that again, I still get some brown water and chunks of stuff out of the drain pipes when I drain the gray tanks. I suspect it's stuff that backs up the line to the gray tanks while the black is draining. Your Imagine may be configured differently.

    Rob
    U.S. Army Retired
    2012 F350 DRW CC LB Lariat PS 6.7
    2020 Solitude 310GK-R, MORryde IS, disc brakes,
    Sailun LRG tires, solar, DP windows, W/D
    (Previously in a Reflection 337RLS)
    Full time since 08/2015

  5. #5
    Seasoned Camper mbergthold's Avatar
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    You're exactly right, that's due to 2 factors - (1) the gray tank dump tube is less than half the size of the large black dump tube, so way less flow and pressure, and (2) gray enters the large dump tube in front of the black, so there's no way it could clean the residual black between the black tank and where the gray enters. Try adding at least 20, I'd prob go 30, gallons of clean water in the black tank after dumping it. That will increase the amount and pressure when you dump the black a 2nd time, and should wash everything out. A clear 90 fitting at the dump end of your sewer hose is helpful, I also do a clear 45 degree fitting directly to the trailer's dump valve so I can see what's going into the hose.

    In my opinion these dump systems are a really stupid design. I have no doubt my replumb will be a major change from how it is now. The challenge will be to keep the dump tubes inside the belly wrap. My plan going in is to see if I can rout all gray to the forward gray tank, and then link the 2nd gray tank as an overflow. Then the rear gray can have it's own separate dump valve, and there would be maximum flow and pressure from the forward gray tank when it's emptied to wash out all the residual black. The challenge for making the rear an overflow tank could be getting around behind the black tank. Oh well, all my questions will be answered when I open the belly. IMO a warranty is of little help if the design is so poor that either the item will never function efficiently or it will continue to break - my preference is to change the design to something workable and less prone to failure. With tank heaters installed, tank valves don't have to be enclosed. IMO the deficiencies of the Imagine 2500 are the lack of thermal windows, inconsistent insulation (too many areas not properly insulated or not insulated at all ie behind the frig on the slide), cheap vent fans, and insufficient load ratings of the frame and suspension. I think I can correct all but the windows. If anyone has a workable idea to increase the thermal barrier of the windows, please let me know.
    Mark and Judy
    USN/USAF family (parents and kids)
    2021 F350 Lariat Crew 4x4 SRW 7.3 Godzilla
    2021 Imagine 2500RL w/Hensley Arrow hitch

  6. #6
    Seasoned Camper mbergthold's Avatar
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    I just re-read your post. If your gray comes into the dump tube after the black, like ours does, you're probably correct - sludge being pushed down the outside of the dump tube will tend to get pushed into the gray inlet, something I'll bet the designers gave no thought to. What frosts me is that this inefficient design in virtually industry-wide now. When I first saw a black tank flush fitting mounted on our Nash's rear wall, I thought "finally!". Then I discovered it was just a jet, a way to get fresh water directly into the black tank, not a whirlygig or oscillating sprayer. Fixed jets are about as worthless as trying to clean the tank with a drip system. After I modify mine, I'll post photos. I want to do this in March, before i put anything into the holding tanks.
    Mark and Judy
    USN/USAF family (parents and kids)
    2021 F350 Lariat Crew 4x4 SRW 7.3 Godzilla
    2021 Imagine 2500RL w/Hensley Arrow hitch

  7. #7
    Site Team Second Chance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbergthold View Post
    I just re-read your post. If your gray comes into the dump tube after the black, like ours does, you're probably correct - sludge being pushed down the outside of the dump tube will tend to get pushed into the gray inlet, something I'll bet the designers gave no thought to. What frosts me is that this inefficient design in virtually industry-wide now. When I first saw a black tank flush fitting mounted on our Nash's rear wall, I thought "finally!". Then I discovered it was just a jet, a way to get fresh water directly into the black tank, not a whirlygig or oscillating sprayer. Fixed jets are about as worthless as trying to clean the tank with a drip system. After I modify mine, I'll post photos. I want to do this in March, before i put anything into the holding tanks.
    Forum hint: Not much of an issue in this thread but, if you use "Reply With Quote" (to the right of "Reply" as I've done here), folks will know to whom you are referring.

    Rob
    U.S. Army Retired
    2012 F350 DRW CC LB Lariat PS 6.7
    2020 Solitude 310GK-R, MORryde IS, disc brakes,
    Sailun LRG tires, solar, DP windows, W/D
    (Previously in a Reflection 337RLS)
    Full time since 08/2015

  8. #8
    Seasoned Camper Rovers's Avatar
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    We have a 2400BH so the tank layout is slightly different. However, if I'm looking at the 2500RL correctly you have two gray tanks (kitchen and bathroom) and you likely have two valves, though I don't think that'll make much difference to my point.

    On our 2400 I drain the black tank first as is SOP for any trailer. I then open the spicket to begin flushing the black tank using the flush system with the black drain still open. That gets a fair amount of 'stuff' to be flushed out of the tank. I the move on to the kitchen gray tank and let it flow freely until it is empty as it generally has less water in it than the bathroom gray tank. I then move on to the bathroom gray which is typically much more full and provides significant flow and prevents anything from the black tank from flowing uphill. Again, the black tank flush is running the entire time. Once the bathroom tank is empty the valve is closed but water continues to flow from the black tank flush.

    After a couple of minutes we shut off the flush water and fill a 5 gallon bucket with water, pour it into the toilet and opening the flush valve as needed until all 5 or so gallons are run through the tank. At that point I close the black tank valve, we fill the toilet bowl completely and sprinkle in one scoop of Happy Camper, flush, then fill the bowl two more times and let three bowlfuls of water/Happy Camper remain in the tank.

    We've never had any issues with the tank system and in fact I think it is laid out fairly well. The handles and the way in which they attach to the valves gives me pause but I've kept the cables lubed and so far no issues.

    In my opinion - and we know all about opinions - you may be overthinking this one. There are so many other mods that make the trailer more comfortable, more "yours" and more enjoyable than tearing apart the sewer system and underbelly. I think you provided good insight in the comment that most of the manufacturers are designing their systems the way Grand Design has. Obviously going with the pack doesn't always make it 'correct' but in this case I think the proof is in the pudding.

    Again, my 2 cents but I do have experience with the Imagine trailers and they've treated us well so far. YMMV

    Bob
    2019 Imagine 2400BH
    Progressive Industries Hardwired EMS, RV Airflow, MicroAir EasyStart, MaxxAir Fan
    2021 Ram 1500 Bighorn EcoDiesel CC short bed
    Anderson Weight Distribution Hitch

  9. #9
    Seasoned Camper mbergthold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rovers View Post
    We have a 2400BH so the tank layout is slightly different. However, if I'm looking at the 2500RL correctly you have two gray tanks (kitchen and bathroom) and you likely have two valves, though I don't think that'll make much difference to my point.

    On our 2400 I drain the black tank first as is SOP for any trailer. I then open the spicket to begin flushing the black tank using the flush system with the black drain still open. That gets a fair amount of 'stuff' to be flushed out of the tank. I the move on to the kitchen gray tank and let it flow freely until it is empty as it generally has less water in it than the bathroom gray tank. I then move on to the bathroom gray which is typically much more full and provides significant flow and prevents anything from the black tank from flowing uphill. Again, the black tank flush is running the entire time. Once the bathroom tank is empty the valve is closed but water continues to flow from the black tank flush.

    After a couple of minutes we shut off the flush water and fill a 5 gallon bucket with water, pour it into the toilet and opening the flush valve as needed until all 5 or so gallons are run through the tank. At that point I close the black tank valve, we fill the toilet bowl completely and sprinkle in one scoop of Happy Camper, flush, then fill the bowl two more times and let three bowlfuls of water/Happy Camper remain in the tank.

    We've never had any issues with the tank system and in fact I think it is laid out fairly well. The handles and the way in which they attach to the valves gives me pause but I've kept the cables lubed and so far no issues.

    In my opinion - and we know all about opinions - you may be overthinking this one. There are so many other mods that make the trailer more comfortable, more "yours" and more enjoyable than tearing apart the sewer system and underbelly. I think you provided good insight in the comment that most of the manufacturers are designing their systems the way Grand Design has. Obviously going with the pack doesn't always make it 'correct' but in this case I think the proof is in the pudding.

    Again, my 2 cents but I do have experience with the Imagine trailers and they've treated us well so far. YMMV

    Bob
    Thanks, Bob - good food for thought. If I'm going to make any mod to the dump system, I figured it'd be alot easier to do while clean and dry. I want to install tank heaters and toronado's regardless, so I'll evaluate while I have the belly open. Do you know if the OEM black tank sprayer is fixed or oscillating?
    Mark and Judy
    USN/USAF family (parents and kids)
    2021 F350 Lariat Crew 4x4 SRW 7.3 Godzilla
    2021 Imagine 2500RL w/Hensley Arrow hitch

  10. #10
    Seasoned Camper mbergthold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Second Chance View Post
    Forum hint: Not much of an issue in this thread but, if you use "Reply With Quote" (to the right of "Reply" as I've done here), folks will know to whom you are referring.

    Rob
    Thanks, Rob - I realized that by clicking "reply" only, it dropped the quotes. I'll stick with the "reply with quotes" option from now on!
    Mark
    Mark and Judy
    USN/USAF family (parents and kids)
    2021 F350 Lariat Crew 4x4 SRW 7.3 Godzilla
    2021 Imagine 2500RL w/Hensley Arrow hitch

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