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  1. #41
    Long Hauler bertschb's Avatar
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    I don't know how things look in the underbelly of our 2019 Solitude but I will say the fit and finish inside is much better than our 2016 Reflection.
    Brian & Kellie
    2020 Solitude 310GK-R, FBP, 1,460w solar, 540ah BBGC3, MORryde IS w/disc brakes
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    Previous setups:
    2019 Solitude 373FB-R, 2019 F-350 Platinum DRW Powerstroke, Hensley BD5 air bag hitch
    2016 Reflection 318RST, 2016 GMC 3500 Denali SRW Duramax, Hensley BD3 air bag hitch

  2. #42
    Site Sponsor Cate&Rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertschb View Post
    I don't know how things look in the underbelly of our 2019 Solitude but I will say the fit and finish inside is much better than our 2016 Reflection.
    Hi Brian,

    It would be interesting see a picture of what's behind the easily removable pass through wall . . . to get a sense of whether the hidden stuff has also improved from what we have come to expect. They have indeed spent a huge amount of resources on improving everything visible, before it leaves their production facilities. "Inspecting" for quality means only visible things . . . by definition. I would hope that this is improving! for the effort they are putting into this.

    Rob
    Last edited by Cate&Rob; 12-26-2018 at 12:20 PM.
    Cate & Rob
    2015 Reflection 303RLS

  3. #43
    Seasoned Camper KirbyRVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cate&Rob View Post
    We have had a number of discussions on Grand Design's approach to quality. Their multi-million dollar investments is post production inspection (of things visible at that point) fosters an attitude that hidden things can be rushed and don't matter. Their "inspect in quality" approach is more than 3 decades out of date. I did have the opportunity to talk with some of the GDRV executives about this at a Rally. I asked if they knew of Edwards Deming. No one admitted to ever having heard of him. The RV industry is so isolated from the rest of the manufacturing world . . . this might be true.

    This thread is a good read on this topic https://www.mygrandrv.com/fo...9262#post49262

    Rob

    Rob
    Anyone who leads any significant business, especially manufacturing, who hasn't heard of Deming and his approach to quality, is either poorly educated in business or just ignorant of business/manufacturing history. If their 'quality assurance' process doesn't include some inspection at different levels of the build process, it is just a joke. To inspect only after the thing is built is not quality assurance.
    2019 Solitude 384GKR
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  4. #44
    Long Hauler howson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cate&Rob View Post
    I asked if they knew of Edwards Deming. No one admitted to ever having heard of him. The RV industry is so isolated from the rest of the manufacturing world . . . this might be true.
    I sure hope it was a memory lapse on their part--I first heard about Deming sometime in 1995. I was a junior Non-Commissioned Officer in the United States Air Force attending a formal military school graduation event. The speaker at the event talked about getting away from inspecting-in quality (in other words doing it right the first time through process engineering). My Dad was with me at the event and commented afterwards (he worked for a major corporation) that it was the same stuff he was hearing at work. If I heard about it as a junior member of the military, do we seriously think that Grand Design executives haven't heard of the quality movement?

    Sorry for taking this thread further OT...
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  5. #45
    Seasoned Camper tortise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cate&Rob View Post
    We have had a number of discussions on Grand Design's approach to quality. Their multi-million dollar investments is post production inspection (of things visible at that point) fosters an attitude that hidden things can be rushed and don't matter. Their "inspect in quality" approach is more than 3 decades out of date. I did have the opportunity to talk with some of the GDRV executives about this at a Rally. I asked if they knew of Edwards Deming. No one admitted to ever having heard of him. The RV industry is so isolated from the rest of the manufacturing world . . . this might be true.

    This thread is a good read on this topic https://www.mygrandrv.com/fo...9262#post49262

    Rob

    Rob
    The sad part is that the thread you referenced was 2015, and it would seem that GD is aware, but the same issues continue.


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  6. #46
    Site Sponsor RobM's Avatar
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    Mine has been in the shop so long, I forget if we have the "RVIA" seal on our rigs...from GoRVing.com:
    "As members of RVIA, manufacturers who display the seal must self-certify compliance with more than 500 safety specifications for electrical, plumbing, heating, fire and life safety established under the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) Standard for Recreational Vehicles. Manufacturers are subject to periodic, unannounced plant inspections by RVIA representatives to audit their compliance. Members who fail to maintain an acceptable level of compliance can be expelled from the Association, which prohibits them from displaying the RVIA seal on their products."
    I guess they need to increase the safety specifications to 501 from 500.
    RobM
    2017 Chevy Silverado 3500 L5P, Transfer Flow 35 Gal Aux Fuel Tank, Pace Edwards Full Metal JackRabbit Tonneau Cover
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  7. #47
    Paid my dues 😁 FT4NOW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobM View Post
    Mine has been in the shop so long, I forget if we have the "RVIA" seal on our rigs...from GoRVing.com:
    "As members of RVIA, manufacturers who display the seal must self-certify compliance with more than 500 safety specifications for electrical, plumbing, heating, fire and life safety established under the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) Standard for Recreational Vehicles. Manufacturers are subject to periodic, unannounced plant inspections by RVIA representatives to audit their compliance. Members who fail to maintain an acceptable level of compliance can be expelled from the Association, which prohibits them from displaying the RVIA seal on their products."
    I guess they need to increase the safety specifications to 501 from 500.
    This is going way off topic, but if the RVIA wasn't owned by all the manufacturers, maybe the seal would actually hold some value. Our rigs do have the seal, but the RVIA is very incestuous and in my opinion having that seal on the rig is the same method on how our rigs are advertised as solar ready because they have a solar plug or are marketed as 4 seasons because they have an insulated and heated underbelly.

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  8. #48
    Seasoned Camper
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    They pay by the part, meaning the workers have a quota to meet. This inherently leads to poor quality as the faster the work gets done, the sooner they get to go home. We toured the factory last year and the whole place is done working by the afternoon, place was empty.

    Unfortunately this is a problem with the whole RV industry. I have owned sever different brands and it is all the same. Everything thrown together with the cheapest components possible, made to look like something it is not.

    DAN

    DAN
    2016 Reflection 323BHS
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  9. #49
    Site Sponsor Cate&Rob's Avatar
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    I realize that we are way off topic . . . but this is a good discussion. RVIA is a particular "sore spot" with me. When I first saw the mess behind the walls I asked GDRV about the manufacturing specs. They told me about the RVIA "requirements". I asked if I could get a copy of these . . . but, was told that these are only available to the RV manufacturers. Talk about the fox guarding the henhouse .

    Digging a little further and I find that RVIA defers to the NEC (National Electrical Code) for electrical requirements. Now, I have a couple of real problems with this. First, the wiring in these RVs would not pass any residential wiring inspection and second, NEC doesn't address things that move . . . only fixed structures.

    Standard practice for motor vehicles, boats (and, I assume airplanes) are much more stringent and always concerned about vibration and abrasion. That RVIA sticker that we are required to pay extra for . . . means nothing that is of value to the consumer.

    Rob
    Cate & Rob
    2015 Reflection 303RLS

  10. #50
    Site Sponsor Cate&Rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by howson View Post
    I sure hope it was a memory lapse on their part--I first heard about Deming sometime in 1995. I was a junior Non-Commissioned Officer in the United States Air Force attending a formal military school graduation event. The speaker at the event talked about getting away from inspecting-in quality (in other words doing it right the first time through process engineering). My Dad was with me at the event and commented afterwards (he worked for a major corporation) that it was the same stuff he was hearing at work. If I heard about it as a junior member of the military, do we seriously think that Grand Design executives haven't heard of the quality movement?

    Sorry for taking this thread further OT...
    Hi Howard,

    If someone understood the Deming teachings, would they build an additional multi-million dollar facility to repeat their in-plant final inspection for every trailer, before shipping? Think what that money could have done if applied to better practices within the manufacturing process.

    Rob
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails GDRV Quality Process.jpeg  
    Cate & Rob
    2015 Reflection 303RLS

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